I really need to play through CC again and catch all this…I can’t believe I didn’t…been awhile, very informative!
Originally posted by Seraphim Ephyon
If your brain is still functional after this, ask me about the Angelus Errare phenomena.
My brain is still functional. 
Most of what you wrote is new to me, because the only game of the series that I played was CT.
Originally posted by somebody, somewhere
However, there is one flaw to your theory Sorc: The Masamune. Supposedly, the Red Knife Contains the hopes and dreams (Let’s just call it essence to shorten it) of those who wield it or affect it in some way. Crono was supposed to change the Red Knife into the Masamune by bathing it in the energy of the Mammon Machine (Or Lavos, which is the same) BUT it was his own soul that changed the knife into the sword (Why the heck would Lavos want to alter the knife into a weapon that can be used against him?). The Masamune existed before Chrono and the gang went trough all this beautiful mess (Cyrus uses it, and the time line was still relatively intact at that moment).
Didn’t Masa and Mune, the two seperate entities that combine to create the sword, say that the sword was worthless? Or that it had no power that the wielder didn’t already have within themselves?
And to be honest, nothing that I’ve written so far was influenced by Chrono Cross. I really don’t think that you need to play Chrono Cross to fully understand Chrono Trigger at all, I think it’s the opposite - in order to fully understand Chrono Cross, you need to play Chrono Trigger.
Angelus Errare is just the point where the whole mess started. For Serge it is Opassa Beach. “Where even the Angels Lose their Way” is what it means. Serge was killed there in “Another World” which is actually the real world. Serge is supposed to be dead. But when Kidd saved him, it caused time to fork off in 2 different directions. He was first dragged into Another World when he was on the beach with Leena, and he finished his quest there.
There are many headache causing plot holes likehow Lavos could bring Chronopolis back to ensure his survival. But wait a second!! Chronopolis was built on a timeline where Lavos was destroyed by Crono & Co .
As for the Entity, it must be the Planet:
Everything that has happened must be a result of the Planet’s wish to cleanse itself of Lavos’ contamination of it. So people like Serge are created in order to carry out the will of the Planet. Crono was supposed to kill Lavos, just as Serge was meant to unite 2 worlds. Examples of the Planet’s counters would include bringing Dinopolis from another dimension’s future into El Nido to counter Chronopolis. The Dragon God is there to counter the FATE supercomputer.
Of course this is just me talking. Longest. Post. Ever. for me.
Sorc: Hum… you are a bit confused here. They describe the sword as useless as long as you use it as JUST a sword. The Masamune could archieve an enormous potential if you could see it’s true nature: A weapon that becomes stronger as much energy it is imbued with. In other words, the stronger the wielder’s mind, the stronger the weapon. In Chrono Cross, the Mastermune has the power to use the Time Egg to send Serge into the past. Now how worthless is that?
Besides, regardless of how usueful the Masamune was, the fact remains that it WAS forged.
Now to the great headache.
I’ll call the dimension split an Angelus Errare because I have no other name for it. And even though I don’t speak latin I know that “The Point Where Angels Lose Their Ways” can’t be resumed in two words.
Angelus Errare is described as the phenomenon that forces a dimension to split in two. Instead of the Res Nullius, in which an alteration can cause the destruction of one universe and the creation of another, the Angelus Errare creates two (Or more) parallel worlds with certain different characteristics. The alterations that the Chrono Cross fixed where exactly these parallel universes. Since the planet didn’t like being split in two (Or more).
What cause an Angelus Errare and why is it different from the Res Nullius? Well, in the first place the Angelus Errare doesn’t involve time travel (FINALLY!), it is an alteration that occurs at a present time and affects the future. In other words, it works just as a simple every day decision: Should I drink coffee or should I drink tea? This creates two universes, one in which I drank coffee and one in which I drank tea.
Okay, maybe not as simple as that, it was just an example. Unlike Res Nullius, in which the most minimal alteration changes the time continuum, Angelus Errare only occurs due to some MASSIVE phenomenon, generally related to dimensional disruptions. As far as I am concerned this happened thrice in the Chrono timeline.
These are just guesses so don’t take anything I say for a dogma.
<i>First Angelus Errare<i>: The day Lavos crashed into Azala’s fortress. The very same day that the planet’s history became drastically affected. My guess is that Lavos was pretty weak when he crashed on earth (Heck, he had to wait until 1999 to be powerful enough to destroy the world) so he COULD have died due to the crash. This could have created two different worlds:
The world where Lavos lived and CT and CC took place in and the Lavos-free world in which he never sucked the energy from the planet, the ice era never occurred, the primitive apes never evolved into humans and the Reptites/Dragonites ruled. This would be the world where Dinopolis was created.
To back up this theory I only have two facts: The WAS a world where Reptites ruled and Lavos’s crash should have caused enough disturbance to the planet’s balance to create another universe. It at least was enough to create the gate that lead to 10000 BC.
<i>Second<i> (This one is just a MAJOR guess of mine): 1005. The day that Guardia was destroyed and the Masamune was stolen. Whoever did this remains a mystery (It couldn’t have been Linx, since Serge gets attacked by the panther demon in 1006 and it’s only after Wasuki (Serge’s father) goes to Chronopolis that he becomes Linx.
The point is that the Masamune evidently had become pretty darn powerful by then (If you count the events, it had already been influenced by the auras of Lavos, Crono, Melchior, Masa, Mune, Glenn/Frog and Cyrus) and as shown in CC, Masa and Mune DO have a little power over time-space (They can use Lucca’s Time Egg/Kidd’s Astral Pendant to send Serge to the past). This mysterious attacker not only stole the Masamune, but he also put so much evil energy into it that he transformed it into and evil sword. This MIGHT have had some influence over time and created two different universes.
My guess is that’s where the Radical Dreamers world came from. But then again, IT’S JUST A GUESS.
<i>Third (And last) Angelus Errare<i>: We all know this one. Kidd saves Serge from drowning in 1010 creating two different worlds: One in which Serge dies and one in which he lives. The whole event was evidently messed up (Schala caused an electrical storm that temporarily blew up FATE’s systems, while she sent Kidd to save the blue-haired boy.) so a dimensional split wasn’t a big surprise.
Sorry for the double post but it was too much text and it would have gotten messy (Even more).
Originally posted by ahkeeyuu
There are many headache causing plot holes like how Lavos could bring Chronopolis back to ensure his survival. But wait a second!! Chronopolis was built on a timeline where Lavos was destroyed by Crono & Co
I already explained the Tesseract. A dimension outside time where Lavos and Schala were trapped. If Schala had the power to send Kidd to 1010 to save Serge, then it isn’t surprising that Lavos had the power to draw Chronopolis who know how many years into the past.
Lavos drew Chronopolis while he was in another dimension, and the Planet called Dinopolis which was in another dimension. Looks pretty even to me.
Well, this person who placed the evil iunto the Masamune, one, it couldn’t have been Lynx, & because of the burning of Lucca’s orphanage, it tells me it could’ve been Harle. Though she isn’t completely evil, she could’ve caused it because it was part of her plan to destroy Chronopolis. The destruction of Lavos was just a side effect of Serge doing the work for her.
No way. On 1006, taking advantage of FATE’s brief shutdown, the Dragons created Harle, a dragon free of it’s control (As a symbol of the Black Moon). According to the guide in the CC shrine, Harle was always Harle, she wasn’t “born” nor did she ever grow up.
In other words: The possible culprit is (Again) unexistant on 1005.
Besides, to counter the Masamune’s original holy status, whoever corrupted it must have been TOTALLY filled with hatred (He/She did counter Crono’s, Glenn’s, Melchior’s and everyone else’s spirits.) Also, the Evil Masamune was guarding the entrance to the Dead Sea in Home World. Whoever did it must have had some link with Lavos (It was in his best interest to keep FATE alive after all).
Originally posted by Seraphim Ephyon
Besides, to counter the Masamune’s original holy status, whoever corrupted it must have been TOTALLY filled with hatred (He/She did counter Crono’s, Glenn’s, Melchior’s and everyone else’s spirits.) Also, the Evil Masamune was guarding the entrance to the Dead Sea in Home World. Whoever did it must have had some link with Lavos (It was in his best interest to keep FATE alive after all).
Lynx
Lynx did not exist at the time. Lynx was created when Serge’s father visited the Dead Sea (Or wa sit the Sea of Eden?). So yea, Lynx couldn’t have done it, whom(or what)ever it was, it had to have been sent my Lavos, or controlled by Lavos.
Originally posted by Sorcerer
I really don’t think that you need to play Chrono Cross to fully understand Chrono Trigger at all, I think it’s the opposite - in order to fully understand Chrono Cross, you need to play Chrono Trigger.
Agreed.
On another note, this type of disussion is why I fucking LOVE the Chrono games. ^^
And Uriel, I think it was the Sea of Eden Wazuki/Lynx entered ('cause Chronopolis and the Flame were there), and at that point became the human manifestation of FATE. Lynx would never have helped Lavos et al, so that rules him out for Evil-Sword-planting duty. I don’t think Harle would have planted the 'mune either, as no way was she totally evil (BTW, who was it that made it evil in the first place? Do we even know? It’s been a while since I played Cross/Trigger).
One thing that gets me though; since FATE had the power to view and influence not just one but two different timelines, shouldn’t it have foreseen that Serge would arrive for the Flame, defeat it, unleash the dragons etc, so why didn’t it make better plans to stop him? Is the Chrono Trigger(s) immune from prescience or something?
FATE was no prophet. Originally, El Nido Archipielago (Former Sea of Eden) was just a mass of water. Then, in 7600 BC, both Cronopolis and Dinopolis appeared.
After winning the fight against Dinopolis, the Chronopolis researchers created the island in El Nido, erased their own memories and populated the island. FATE was supposed to guide the lives of these people (And their descendants) so that in the future THEY create Chronopolis. Another loop paradox.
In other words: FATE know what happened because it came from the future, but it has no information about what the people in El Nido are going to do since they weren’t supposed to exist. If you pay attention, a computer in Chronopolis says that FATE avoided every possible contact with Zenan Mainland (Since Zenan DID exist in FATE’s memory).
Originally posted by Seraphim Ephyon
you pay attention, a computer in Chronopolis says that FATE avoided every possible contact with Zenan Mainland (Since Zenan DID exist in FATE’s memory).
I stand corrected. I had forgotten about that bit of the game. Ho hum.
Pierson and Sorcerer, CT barely says anything about the hows and whys of time travel and dimensional travel in its universe. So while I agree that no other game is necessary to understand CT, any understanding that you can get from that game alone leaves enormous room for speculation and interperetation.
Speaking of speculation, would it make sense if FATE were prescient, but only in a limited way? Thus, in the ways that it (him/her?) is prescient, it is able to resolve any issues that arrise quickly and effectively, so you wouldn’t see them as issues during the game. You’d only see the aspects not visible to it. Thoughts?
FATE controls the Dragons in two worlds, so I don’t think you can rule out some small measure of prescience. Monitoring two dimensions and stopping anything interefering with it for however many years (I forget) must count for something. It was only Schala’s cry to Serge that caused FATE to shut down in the first place anyway, so it can’t be totally prescient.
Although it would have probably happened anyway. Electric storm means EMP if it hits anything that can carry a current, right? To avoid it, FATE would have had to shut down anyway. The Dragon Gods would have broken free to create Harle whatever happened (assuming FATE didn’t use some bad-ass shielding).
Also, neither Chrono game explained Time Travel fully. IT’s one of the best aspects of it. It’s because of that that discussions like this one are possible. ^^
Originally posted by Pierson
Also, neither Chrono game explained Time Travel fully.
It wasn’t necessary to explain it.
Originally posted by ahkeeyuu
It wasn’t necessary to explain it.
No, but it would have have been nice. 
Originally posted by Ivan
Pierson and Sorcerer, CT barely says anything about the hows and whys of time travel and dimensional travel in its universe. So while I agree that no other game is necessary to understand CT, any understanding that you can get from that game alone leaves enormous room for speculation and interperetation.
Hardly. There was very little “speculation” left in Chrono Trigger at all, really. The only possible speculation that I can think of would be the ins and outs of the time travel - of which is completly irrelevent in the first place. I mean, if you wanna know that fine - it’s cool, but it isn’t neccessary to fully comprehend the space time continum to understand the plot line of Chrono Trigger.
“… the hows and whys of time travel and dimensional travel …” But at least we agree on one thing.
The whys of time travel? That doesn’t make sense; what are the whys of time travel? The reasoning behind it?