CT discussion (spoilers, obviously)

I’m starting a new thread on this, so that it doesn’t get mixed up with the character names discussion.

I wrote:
I was (very) briefly considering naming Frog “Kermit”. As for the name “Crono”, though, I really think the developers were just playing fill in the blank. First of all, the notion of time has no particular significance to the character at the start of the game. And second, while the game is about time travel, there’s nothing of the notion that inherently relates to the character Crono - he’s just along for the ride.

Xwing1056 responded:
[b]No, nothing in Chrono Trigger was that shallow. Do you remember when Gaspar was describing the Chrono Trigger? He said this:

Let us call that the Chrono Trigger. It is pure potential. By unleashing a specific course of events, it can have a powerful effect on time.

He is talking about the Egg, but simultaneously, players will think of Crono because he shares its name (in the Japanese, he and the egg were spelled the same, Kurono). Looking back, who started the chain of events that allowed time to be changed? Crono. If he hadn’t met Marle, she never would have tried Lucca’s machine and been sent back in time. If he had decided not to go back and rescue her, Leene would have died. When, in the future, Lucca asks Crono whether they should attempt to save time, he decides that they will. He triggers everything. That’s why his friends need to bring him back to life; it’s one of the quests necessary for saving the world. If you don’t, you won’t get the happy ending. Crono is different than, say, Magus; time can be saved in the right way whether or not he’s alive. Nearly every major plot point shows that time revolves around Crono. The whole game revolves around Crono.[/b]

I haven’t won the game without rescuing Crono, so perhaps you can fill me in on what happens, but otherwise, I’m skeptical of your answer. It seems to me that the only act that is strictly necessary to “save time” is to defeat Lavos, and Crono doesn’t even need to be in the active party to accomplish that.

Even if Crono had died,his potential would’ve lived on, it is believed that Serge is a descendant of Crono because of this.

And if you played Chrono Cross, Crono’s soul makes a return to explain the events in CT.

Here

This explains most of the entire Chrono Continuum. It’s kinda a cheat though (I only read it after completeing both Chrono games), so make sure you really wanna know before reading, as the spoilers are amazing in their thouroughness.

Pierson, link is broken.

Originally posted by Ivan
I haven’t won the game without rescuing Crono, so perhaps you can fill me in on what happens

http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/snes/ct/endings.shtml
It’s not exactly a sad ending, but it implies that the quest to save time isn’t over yet.

but otherwise, I’m skeptical of your answer. It seems to me that the only act that is strictly necessary to “save time” is to defeat Lavos, and Crono doesn’t even need to be in the active party to accomplish that.

Square included the alternate endings to show that more than defeating Lavos was necessary for completely saving time. Some are just lighthearted humor, but others are very meaningful. For example, if Crono and his friends never helped Ayla defeat Azala, humans would be replaced by Reptites (ending #8).

Do you remember when the party is unconscious, and Lavos is about to kill them? Magus tries to get his revenge on Lavos, but fails. Then, Crono somehow sacrifices his life to save his friends. This critical moment fully reveals him as the Chrono Trigger. He is the “pure potential” that Gaspar will later speak of. He has the unique characteristic that enables time to be changed; for, unless he sacrifices himself there before Lavos, the party would die and Lavos would triumph in 12000 B.C. (or 1999 A.D., if the party never went back in time at all).

Xwing1056

[spoiler] The “Chrono Trigger” seems to be an individual with the power to transcend Time/Space (Like Crono being able to revive and Serge being able to exist between dimensions) and that, even though is vital to the “planet” (Which is refereed to as an entity of it’s own), he remains unchanged whatever happens to the Time/Space thread (I suppose that’s why Serge could get his body back, because he was vital for the planet even if there was another “Serge” in that dimension. The thing with Gaspar’s “Chrono Trigger” is that it is refereed to as the “Time Egg” during Chrono Cross, it actually never is called Chrono Trigger again. Makes me wonder if Square actually wanted to call the egg like that in the first place and then they decided to give the “Trigger” denomination to only Serge and Crono.

There is one thing that bothers me in CT. The party didn’t follow the time thread exactly as they where supposed to, the most clear example is then Black Omen, it wasn’t there in the beginning (although now that I think of it, you can destroy it in the Zeal Era and the following time periods remain the same) but I still don’t understand the thing with Magus and the Mystics. When the game starts, the Mystics are praising Magus as their leader, but after you defeat him, they seem to consider him a traitor (Beats me how would they know) and are praising Ozzy instead.

In simpler words: Someone ELSE was supposed to beat Magus and leave him as a martyr for the Mystics. Maybe that’s the ending in which Frog battles him by himself…
[/spoiler]

All together now: I HATE TIME TRAVEL!

Originally posted by Seraphim Ephyon
[b]
There is one thing that bothers me in CT. The party didn’t follow the time thread exactly as they where supposed to, the most clear example is then Black Omen, it wasn’t there in the beginning (although now that I think of it, you can destroy it in the Zeal Era and the following time periods remain the same) but I still don’t understand the thing with Magus and the Mystics. When the game starts, the Mystics are praising Magus as their leader, but after you defeat him, they seem to consider him a traitor (Beats me how would they know) and are praising Ozzy instead.

In simpler words: Someone ELSE was supposed to beat Magus and leave him as a martyr for the Mystics. Maybe that’s the ending in which Frog battles him by himself…
[/spoiler][/b]

The Black omen stays the same? I thought if you defeated it in the Dark Ages then the others would disappear? Well I know, SOMETHING triggers different dialogue or Black Omen events, depending on when you choose to beat it, I went through something like this.

This isn’t really confirmed, but I believe they view Magus as a traitor because he lost. Also, his actions, after the Zeal Palace events seem to have become known throughout 600 AD…or rather to Ozzy, Flea and Slash. Remember, when you fight them, they are belittling Magus for his failure, and because of him joining up with Crono. Even though they ridicule Magus, this doesn’t signal their defeat, because you have to fight all 3 of them twice. Meaning, you could fight Ozzy, Flea and Slash once, and they’ll express their hatred/ confusion, but they still wont be forever defeated, but alive, and the rumour and worship of Ozzy will be handed down to the Mystics. So, technically because Ozzy goes undefeated, everyone worships him, and despises Magus, because “Ozzy said so”. Not until you beat them all the second time, will the scenario change.

And no, no one else was supposed to beat Magus. He was to remain undefeated, as seen in the beginning of the game when you first time travel, because his statue is there. it only changes because Crono travels back in time, and actually DEFEATS Magus (he wasn’t supposed to, I guess). Though this raises the question, what would have happened if Magus DID manage to summon Lavos? he would have been too weak to destroy Lavos, which means that 1000 AD would cease to exist.

So technically, no one was supposed to defeat Magus, not in 600 AD. The fact that there was…a worm hole, a rip, in time, means that Crono was “destined” to constantly go back and destroy Magus, as the scenario plays in time over and over again. If he didn’t he couldn’t be able to exist (because assuming if Magus had summoned Lavos and Lavos overpowered him, destroying everything) because 1000 AD just wouldn’t “be”.

Anyways, I hope I made sense, I’m treading onto unfamiliar Donnie Darko-ish ground here, so if I use faulty terms, I apologize. I’ll try to be more clear next time.

Originally posted by Seraphim Ephyon
There is one thing that bothers me in CT. The party didn’t follow the time thread exactly as they where supposed to, the most clear example is then Black Omen, it wasn’t there in the beginning (although now that I think of it, you can destroy it in the Zeal Era and the following time periods remain the same)

The real question is why the Black Omen is not at first present in 1000 A.D. The Undersea Palace, for some reason, stayed underwater in 12000 B.C. Magus, as the Prophet, did not cause it to become the Black Omen; otherwise, you would see the Black Omen in 600 A.D. after you defeat Magus and send him back in time. Crono and his friends must somehow cause the Undersea Palace to become the Black Omen. Perhaps if Crono hadn’t performed his role as the Chrono Trigger, the Palace would have forever remained near Lavos underground.

[b][spoiler]but I still don’t understand the thing with Magus and the Mystics. When the game starts, the Mystics are praising Magus as their leader, but after you defeat him, they seem to consider him a traitor (Beats me how would they know) and are praising Ozzy instead.

In simpler words: Someone ELSE was supposed to beat Magus and leave him as a martyr for the Mystics. Maybe that’s the ending in which Frog battles him by himself…
[/spoiler][/b]

[spoiler]Remember how Magus was summoning Lavos, as you attacked him? What would Magus have done if you weren’t there? He would have attacked Lavos, like he did in 12000 B.C. Then he would have died, leaving the Mystics with no idea of what happened to him. There was no hero to slay him, since Frog didn’t have the Masamune or the Hero’s Medal. The scenario where Frog attacks Magus could occur only if you do what’s necessary for that ending: to kill Lavos after regaining Frog, but before fighting Magus. Frog, at that point, has accepted his role as the Hero. Either Frog would kill Magus, or Magus would kill Frog and soon after be killed by Lavos (who is still alive in 600 A.D.).

In fact, Frog must have won, because someone is standing atop Magus’s castle after the battle. It can’t be Magus - he would have been killed by Lavos. It must be Frog, become Glenn.[/spoiler]

Xwing1056

You are all thinking on too grand a scale.

[Spoiler]The first real event in Chrono Trigger that altered the events of time was the defeat of Magus. Magus was not supposed to be defeated that early - because it was only mere minutes before Lavos would come and do the same thing. By fighting Magus and winning you kept Magus from being killed by Lavos (and potentially destroying the rest of the castle, including Ozzie) - you weakened him so that he was not confident in his abilities, and was forced to flee. Remember, the mystics never clarify who or what defeated Magus - just that he was defeated, but he fought for their cause, which is what makes him a martyr at all. However, to the mystics, Magus did not die - he fled. They know nothing of Lavos and Magus’s plans, so when Magus disappears with Lavos and Chrono, then Ozzie assumed control and carried on the war - still loosing to the Guardia empire, however he took Magus’s spot as the martyr. Notice that if you go back and defeat Ozzie as well, then there is no martyr at all in Mystic Village.

The Black Omen is relativly easily explained. Had Chrono and the gang not defeated Magus and forced him to become the prophet, then Lavos would have showed up and destroyed the Zeal empire on his own - but because they show up and stop the mammoth machine, then the people of Zeal, recognizing their defeat, flee to the Underwater Palace, the Black Omen. It arises out of the ocean, and the process is repeated. Zeal was still destroyed, just as it was supposed to be, however the essential people, namely Queen Zeal, were not destroyed in the process, as she should have been. Being blinded by her greed, Queen Zeal blamed the defeat on Chrono, and refused to accept the power and lack of benevolence of Lavos. As such, the Black Omen (instead of remaining underwater forever), rose to the skies to try again.[/spoiler]

That’s what I’ve made of it anyway, I hope it makes sense.

That one made th emost sence, Sorc.

[spoiler]Oh yes, I understand now. The Magus being killed by Lavos makes sense.

However, there is one flaw to your theory Sorc: The Masamune. Supposedly, the Red Knife Contains the hopes and dreams (Let’s just call it essence to shorten it) of those who wield it or affect it in some way. Crono was supposed to change the Red Knife into the Masamune by bathing it in the energy of the Mammon Machine (Or Lavos, which is the same) BUT it was his own soul that changed the knife into the sword (Why the heck would Lavos want to alter the knife into a weapon that can be used against him?). The Masamune existed before Chrono and the gang went trough all this beautiful mess (Cyrus uses it, and the time line was still relatively intact at that moment).

If you ask me, the Black Omen ordeal is one of those Circle Paradoxes. You know, people traveling to the past to change something in order to make something happen that allows them to travel back in time to change the first something (If you want an example: Kidd travels from 1030 to 1010 to save Serge’s life, so that he can travel from 1020 to whenever the orphanage was burned (1010 is my closest bet), in order to save Kidd, so that she can travel back to 1010 to Save serge so that he can go to the orphanage and save Kidd and so on and so forth).

It would be like this: Crono travels back in time and uses the Red knife in the Mammon Machine, so that Lavos awakes an destroys everything. The Black Omen raises and Crono destroys it in the same era. That way the future remains unchanged and Crono is born into a Omen-less world, lives peacefully until he meets Marle. Then, after several events, he travels back in time, uses the Red knife in the Mammon machine and we enter the loop once again… That’s supposed to be the Chrono Trigger’s duty, to travel and alter time in order to preserve balance.

Of course it all depends on WHEN you defeat the Omen. It just makes sense that they would destroy it in it’s same era, in order to prevent Lavos from sucking so much energy from the planet.
[/spoiler]

You know, to hell with mental health, this whole debate is really interesting. Even though my brain will become warm jelly.

Wow, that makers sense, too.We’ll just have to wait until Chrono Break to find out if these questions will be answered.

Chrono Break…?

And I was also trying to explain the loop-y thing the first time around but failed miserably:thud:

The third game coming, I hear it’ll be called Chrono Break, but it might be some other name…it’s gonna be awhile, though…

fan girl scream
I’ll have to check this little tidbit out and see if it’s true.

Okay, I’m not going to put in spoiler tags, because this entire tread is spoilers, and they are a nuisance to use. If anyone has a problem with it, I can edit my post and put them in later.

Anyways, one nice thing about Chrono Trigger is that it uses a simple model for time travel: the timeline is freely changable, paradoxes be damned. On the other hand, there are a very limited set of “entrances” that the characters can use to jump into the timeline.

Now, let’s talk about the Entity again. The game basically says nothing about it, other than to acknowledge its existence. Thus, there are a few things which it can trivially be said to represent (for example, the player, the game designer, or a Divine Entity). One useful way to interpret the Entity is as an abstract notion of someone looking at the timeline from outside of the story’s time, just like an author can look at a book he is writing in any order he wants. Such an Entity would be able to look at a timeline that is messed around with, like I described in the first paragraph, without seeing it as weird, whereas it would be strange to the characters themselves.

Now, I’ll go one step further, and this may seem like a bit of a stretch. I think that once you have the notion of an entity that sort of exists outside of time, you can look to see if such an entity exists inside the game world. I think that the Black Omen is an attempt to put a hypothetical “entity outside of time” inside the game.

The entity is either: The Player (We ARE controlling them after all), The Planet (It has a mind of it’s own, like in FF7. The Planet was the one that draw Dinopolis into El Nido) or Schala (Most likely, the whole point of Chrono Cross was to rescue her and set the damned paradox-filled timeline into order again. besides, like Ivan said, she DOES exist outside of time). No need to make it any more complicated.

I disagree, since that Entity is obviously present in Chrono Trigger, though it isn’t the Black Omen. When Lavos is defeated, the gates are still there, which suggests lavos had nothing to do with them at all, and he didn’t. I’m sure everyone knew this, though, but the “Entity” got the blame so to speak for making it all possible. Which sparks so many questions, but it’s best to leave that little presence as CT’s Deus Ex Machina.

Though I like your third paragraph Ivan, it seems to be applied with what I wrote…well in my head it does.

EDIT for SE’s reply: Ah yes Schala, completely forgot about her importance in CC…though she isn’t really noted for importance, is she? I haven’t played CC in AGES so I can’t seem to remember what role she played in CC and how they needed her to set things right again…

I’m going to lose the spoiler tags, since the thread’s title already includes “spoiler.”

Originally posted by Sorcerer
However, to the mystics, Magus did not die - he fled.

That makes sense. In the originally history, Ozzie must have been with Magus when he summoned Lavos, rather than safe in a pit.

The Black Omen is relativly easily explained. Had Chrono and the gang not defeated Magus and forced him to become the prophet, then Lavos would have showed up and destroyed the Zeal empire on his own - but because they show up and stop the mammoth machine, then the people of Zeal, recognizing their defeat, flee to the Underwater Palace, the Black Omen.

Wait. I think you’ve mixed up the order of events. The Mammon Machine is at that time still functional. The red knife, as one character says, is not enough to stop it. The Mammon Machine is not destroyed until you fight it on the Black Omen. The citizens of Zeal do not retreat onto the ship; they simply die, except a handful in the Last Village.

Lavos probably did destroy the Undersea Palace, originally. What stops him in the new history? Not the Mammon Machine’s destruction: when Lavos would have annihilated the Palace, the machine works fine. Something else hinders Lavos.

It arises out of the ocean, and the process is repeated. Zeal was still destroyed, just as it was supposed to be, however the essential people, namely Queen Zeal, were not destroyed in the process, as she should have been. Being blinded by her greed, Queen Zeal blamed the defeat on Chrono, and refused to accept the power and lack of benevolence of Lavos. As such, the Black Omen (instead of remaining underwater forever), rose to the skies to try again.

Oh, Queen Zeal certainly has no grudge against Lavos. Have you ever traveled to 2300 A.D. to fight the Black Omen? Zeal appears as soon as you board the ship and triumphantly tells you that, since Lavos has already won, fighting her is pointless. Have you fought Zeal with Magus in your party? Zeal’s motives are shown a little more clearly, when you do. Finally, Queen Zeal retains her magic after the other people from Zeal lose it, meaning that she is still linked to Lavos. She fully supports him. She raises the Black Omen out of the sea, simply to wait for Lavos to come 13999 years later.

That’s what I’ve made of it anyway, I hope it makes sense.

It pretty much does, good interpretation.

Xwing1056

You see, after Chrono and Co defeat Lavos (Regardless on which time, even though my money is still on 10.000 BC) the “Res Nullius” phenomena occurs. As Miguel explains in the Tower of Geddon and Lucca wrote on her letter to Kidd, the crappy future Crono, Lucca and Marle saw when they escaped from Guardia never existed. All the universes that are denied existence or are replaced by another one, get hurled into the Tesseract (The Darkness Beyond Time) which is simply and plainly: The Time/Space Trash Can. An example of this place is seen right at the beginning of CT. Queen Leene supposedly died so Marle never existed, thus she is transported to the Darkness. Then Crono sets things straight and she comes back (She even says “It was dark… I was alone”). NOTHING disappears, it just gets dumped. That’s why Lucca was sad about the future being changed: All those people that lived after the Day of Lavos where thrown into the Darkness as well.

Following this principle, there’s the creation of the Time Devourer.

Schala fell into the Tesseract after the Ocean palace incident (Some dimensional breach or something that Lavos created).

Everything after 1999 was eliminated. Thus Lavos (the future one) and his Spawns where sent into the Darkness as well.

Inside the Darkness, Schala entered in contact with either Lavos himself or one of his spawns (I’d go with the latter, since the Lavos that formed Time Devourer was just the size of a spawn). they Fused and created the TD.

Chrono Cross was about two things: Freeing Schala from her bond with Lavos and using the Chrono Cross to stabilize Time-Space.

The second one was achieved by using the planet’s song. A tune created by the harmony between all the elements. If the CC elements where the same as in CT (Yellow being Lightning, Black being Shadow, etc) this would be explained like this:

Crono’s magic was different from that of Zeal because it came from the Planet. Some guy in Zeal even mentions that the power their kingdom used was no longer the one from their “Old and tired planet”. The Dragon Tear in Chrono Cross was a creation of the Dragonites (CT’s reptites or their evolved form). The Reptites, unlike humans, lived in peace with the planet since they where Lavos-Free. The two shards of the Dragon tear (From Home and Another World) fuse as a symbol of the planet’s wish to become one: The Chrono Cross.

Using the planet’s tune along with the Chrono Cross was supposed to, once and for friggin all, stabilize the helluva-messed up dimensional thread.

If your brain is still functional after this, ask me about the Angelus Errare phenomena.