Columbine

So Occam’s Razor cuts to the truth.

It’s amazing to me that some of these stories were totally false. There was a whole book written about the death of that girl who was killed for saying she believed in God…but now the FBI says that it was totally false? How in the world did that become such an accepted truth if it never happened?

And these killers…I mean, I never understood the whole belief that videogames were responsible (obviously, since I’m posting here). I kind of chalked it up to bullying or to parents who weren’t paying much attention. But it seems like both of them were just truly crazy people. Nothin g the parents did could have changed that - and they tried. That’s it. There was no great external stimuli, there was no rhyme or reason. “They weren’t goths or loners.” They were just cold-blooded bastards. It’s that simple.

In one case, county officials took five years just to acknowledge that they had met in secret after the attacks to discuss a 1998 affidavit for a search warrant on Harris’ home — it was the result of a complaint against him by the mother of a former friend. Harris had threatened her son on his website and bragged that he had been building bombs.

Police already had found a small bomb matching Harris’ description near his home — but investigators never presented the affidavit to a judge.

They also apparently didn’t know that Harris and Klebold were on probation after having been arrested in January 1998 for breaking into a van and stealing electronics.

The search finally took place, but only after the shootings.
FAIL.

A lot of stuff in this article has been known, too, for a while. Most of this looks like the writer is restating some of the known facts while just saying “Yeah I don’t believe it happened.” I mean, there are TONS of little things here that we all knew:

  • They wanted to kill a lot of people. Duh. That’s why they had bombs.
  • Bombs were poorly set up. Well, obviously. Maybe those two bombs weren’t close to working, but they had a lot of smaller bombs, too.
  • This guy cites an author who tries to blame it again on “ohhh they played too much video games.” How is that something to be happy about? That kind of claim sets us back big time. Besides that, they already know these guys had psychological problems.
  • Other than that, I’d love to see some of their sources that claim that they weren’t on anti-depressants.
  • The journal bullshit was already known, as well as the fact that one was a sociopath and one was very depressed, as I stated above.

I’m definitely open to hearing a new interpretation of why somebody really thinks this happened, but this is just bullshit. Apart from like one or two things, most of this information could be found on the Wikipedia article about them - that is, it was information available on the Wiki article before this article was published. It’s like he’s taking the facts we already know and going “See? It’s BECAUSE of this that they didn’t do it because of bullying!”

Well, let me just say something. It’s highly unlikely that somebody just BECOMES psychopathic or severely depressed. None of the stuff mentioned in this article definitively proves that they didn’t become that way as a result of bullying - not even the fact that they participated in bullying, themselves. Fuck this article.

If teachers and students were allowed to bring guns to school, this never would have happened

Kazuo Kiriyama and Mitsuko Souma!

We had the first school shooting ever in Greece and the response of the minister was “We never had school shooting in Greece”. An MP helpfully added that the event doesn’t characterise the whole student body. That was the whole official response, while the country’s been pretty restless since December. What a pathetic reaction.

I like how the article says people blamed videogames etc. and then says hey, it’s not as they were goths or loners.

/selects Joy Division from playlist.

I think the tone of the article, “They were crazy, that was a freebie,” is highly irresponsible. Some things cannot be prevented, bad things still happen, et ceteras, but there are questions we really should be raising about our society that we’re misusing some sort of chemical determinism to get out of dealing with, no differently than we used video games, Marilyn Manson, or black leather to get out of dealing with.

I’m from Jefferson County. You want to know how we dealt with Columbine? One cannot wear hats in school, strange students may not shadow a school to decide whether or not to attend, parents were recommended to “check up” on what their kids were doing, especially if they played video games or listened t o certain kinds of music. None of the real problems actually changed. It honestly might not have bullying. It could have just been the atmosphere that some were better than others. Journal entries about picking on “freshman and fags” doesn’t exactly make one the top of the public school food chain, they just went for some of the lower people, like everyone else. This doesn’t mean they weren’t excluded and looked down upon, themselves.

God damn it! Not another thread school shooting thread. facepalms

Haven’t we beaten this subject to death already? Could we at least wait a couple of months before showing another article on the utter stupidity and failure of an idiot on their goddamn soapbox preaching to their quire of ignorant dolts? :hint:

Seriously hasn’t everybody already expressed their opinion on this very matter in this thread here?

This is absolutely correct. Of course there is no reason to idealize the killers as “good kids,” but it is beyond dispute that a) the atmosphere at Columbine was extremely unhealthy, and encouraged bullying, and b) that same atmosphere was present at nearly every school where shootings occurred. The fact that the killers were perpetrators of bullying, as well as victims of it, does not really contradict anything. In an environment where asserting oneself at the expense of others is viewed as the most important thing, unpopular kids will often try to humiliate even more unpopular kids, in order to demonstratively distance themselves from them.

Similar to when Setz tried to make fun of Hades and Basara, thinking he was higher on the RPGC social ladder.

So where exactly am I on the RPGC social ladder, missus?

(Serious post)

Was the atmosphere at Columbine really any more prone to bullying than your average American High School? I agree 100% with your last sentence, but where is the connection between that and launching armed warfare on your school? Certainly every school I went to had social hierarchies, there was bullying, fights…all of these things occurred. Perhaps the teachers at my school did a bit better job of monitoring those who were deemed susceptible to violent outbursts, I’m not really sure. What’s the alternative though? Zero tolerance policies? Expelling students for fist fights on the football pitch after school? Sure, I suppose we could prevent 99.9% of violent incidents with brutal crackdowns and pre-emptive strikes. I’m not sure if we really want our school culture to make this kind of dramatic shift. After all, I think one of the reasons American schools have performed so well is that they more closely mimic the “real world” than schools do in other places. Sure, adults in the workforce or in social areas like churches and organizations might have more subtle and “sophisticated” means of bullying each other than kids in middle school do, but the fact is adult social structures are all hierarchical in nature, and American high schools prepare people for that. Survive, crawl your way up the ladder…these are all attitudes we supposedly support and throw around as evidence that America is great, except when it harms our own precious little baby. It’s fine that we want to shield our children from these things: children also need support, understanding, learn the virtues of charity and working together to achieve a common purpose. I’ve seen the direct opposite though. In China, you get the case of the “spoiled emperor”, kids who are so detached from reality that they can’t function in a normal capacity in society or at work. They’ve been so completely shielded from forces like competition, never criticized or expected to perform in an individual capacity, and it literally prevents them from ever becoming an adult. They live at home until they’re 40, despite the fact they have a master’s degree in economics. Of course, they had a safe childhood, but was it worth it?

Anyway, all I’m trying to say is that I do agree with the main point of the article. These kids were seriously disturbed. The adults in the situation failed in that they didn’t recognize the signs. The situation could have been prevented, I’m sure, if our school system was set up differently. Perhaps if the kids that had bullied them had been more severely punished, these kids could have become congressmen. I don’t think most of us are willing to make the shift in priorities to do that though. And honestly - are there really enough school shootings to justify it anyway? There are a million more immediate problems facing our education system that affect millions of kids than trying to prevent some sociopathic maniac shooting up the place once or twice a decade.

Yes, it was, although I suspect the average is drifting in the direction of Columbine. Your skepticism stems from the fact that you went to a reasonably normal high school. So did I. My high school did have bullying and cliquishness, but the level was fairly low. The administration tolerated all the different social groups, within certain limits. Athletes were held in high regard, but not to the extent of denying the worth of everyone else. Generally the popular kids were fairly well-rounded and didn’t really lord it over others.

Schools like Columbine have a much more extreme atmosphere. The Columbine administration really believed that those kids who were bullied deserved it because of a lack of “school spirit.” For example, the star wrestler at Columbine would shove and punch his girlfriend, in front of a teacher or hall monitor, for merely talking to an unpopular kid, with no consequences. This same guy also attacked a Jewish kid during gym class, pinned him to the floor and threatened to burn him in an oven; this continued on a regular basis until the kid’s parents transferred the kid to a different school. So in this case, it’s not that the guy was not punished “severely enough,” it’s that he was not punished <i>at all</i>, in fact he had the full support of the administration.

Remember, there are places where people view high school football as the only important thing in life. In “Columbine-like” schools, teachers willfully ignore or even encourage extreme aggression in bullies, because they really believe that bullying has a positive effect. Kids are naturally inclined to form cliques and judge others based on arbitrary and meaningless standards – but in these schools, the administration gives in to their worldview. Almost every school shooting in recent memory has occurred in just such a school.

The problem goes beyond mere youthful callousness. Schools like Columbine develop an extreme “winner-loser” culture, where the “winners” are determined by some meaningless standard that has very little to do with actual ability, and the “losers” are considered to deserve everything that happens to them, solely because of their status as “losers.” Social groups among high school kids already tend to self-organize in this manner, but when the administration itself sees the world in basically the same terms, you can get very extreme brutality.

In some sense, you are right about the resemblance of such schools to the “real world.” But this is not a good resemblance – it just means that more and more “real-world” workplaces are turning into high school, and judge the worth of their employees as human beings on high-school-like criteria. Yes, society itself adopted the “winner-loser” worldview, but this gave us rapacious and fraudulent companies, hardly the capitalist dream you’re talking about in your post. Enron also had a “winner-loser culture,” where the “winners” were the guys who drove Porsches and cooked the books, while the “losers” were the guys who wanted to do honest work every day and retire in peace. This extreme law-of-the-jungle ideology has been shoved down our collective throats over the past few decades, but it has nothing to do with the “traditional” ethos of hard work and competition. Unsurprisingly, there is an analogous trend of “rage massacres” in these kinds of workplaces as well, not just in schools.

Regarding the rest of your post, I oppose all “zero-tolerance” policies. For one thing, I don’t think they would be effective in preventing violence. Also, they are disproportionate to the infractions they punish, and they tend to target those kids who are already the victims of bullying, rather than the popular kids at the top of the ladder. As Arac already stated, such policies take the easy way out. So your attack on them doesn’t have much to do with my post. I don’t think the problem has an easy fix – the problem requires society as a whole to at least temper its attitude regarding the “winner-loser culture,” and restore a higher status to such concepts as “honest law-abiding work.”

EDIT: Regarding the “spoiled emperors,” I would argue that the bullies are also “spoiled emperors,” just in a different form. Their “success” is based entirely on their ability to satisfy the arbitrary standards of the completely artificial, isolated little world of high school. They have absolutely no ability to compete in a real, non-fraudulent company. Instead of pushing them to develop such skills, the school administration encourages them to base their lives around the warped values of high school social competitions. For this reason, many of them end up living mediocre lives after high school. Their aggression doesn’t make them able to compete because all they know how to do is humiliate others.

Zeppelin, I have met several of those “spoiled emperors,” and I think you make a good point bringing them up. I would write a long post about my views, if I weren’t busy studying for exams and hadn’t argued this out a few weeks ago. So, kudos.

They are just makeing excuses. Thats what they always do. They are just trying to find something to blame so they don’t have to admit the obvious truth. They were people who ahd mental health problems and most likely hadn’t taken their medicine like good little boys.

[00:08] zeppelin- SK is actually a bot
[00:08] zeppelin- I programmed it like 10 years ago
[00:08] zeppelin- he’s been studying all of you for 10 years
[00:08] genericangst- oh wow
[00:08] zeppelin- but now it’s become unstoppable
[00:08] genericangst- Are you willing to say that in his presence? Or is he not self-aware?
[00:09] zeppelin- “his” presence is everywhere
[00:09] zeppelin- he’s scanning our packets now, as we speak
[00:09] genericangst- So posting this would only make him angry?
[00:09] zeppelin- he doesn’t get angry
[00:09] zeppelin- he gets LOGICAL

I’m shocked. Your own creation turning against you.

I now propose changing the focus of this thread to a cordial, friendly discussion of ham, and possibly of other delicious meat products.

You have a habit of humbling people with the simplest of phrases.

EDIT: Furthermore, I wish I disagreed with SK, because I’ve been meaning to get decimated in an argument by him so I can learn how to argue more effectively. That’s why zeppelin brought it up at all.

This might offend Cidoflas, especially if you are listening to music while heading ham

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/Pork/