Cloud/Aeris-Aerith OR Cloud/Tifa

The Core The Polling Forum
#36

AC didn’t “undo” the character development he had. It reintroduced new issues which ended up with Cloud acting similarly to how he’d done before. Taken from a story point the differences make sense. They’re just not very nice. :sunglasses: And when was Sephiroth not able to affect him, at least on an emotional level?

The difference between “terrorist” and “freedom fighters” often is which side of history you’re on. Remember AVALANCHE’s headquarters was in Tifa’s bar; she was heavily involved with them, so she obviously felt that their cause was just.

#37

whatever you call it, you’re getting a psychologically disturbed man to go kill possibly hundreds of people. Of course, this is trying to apply real-world psychology to RPG heroes, so it’s flawed, but still.

#38

By the end of Final Fantasy 7 I felt it was pretty clear Cloud had broken the hold Jenova/Sephiroth had over him. :expressionless: As for AC, I didn’t think there was anything in there that showed good enough reason for him to revert to his old self. No, I don’t think Geostigma would have affected him that way - as he was at the end of the game. That’s why I said the just decided to hit the undo button on him.

And even if you were to say that there was justification for how he was acting, none of it was ever shown, not even in flashbacks. It was just a case of him going from “Hurray I’m strong enough to stand on my own two feet and help my friends!” to “I’m a whiny git blah blah blah”. there was, as far as we are shown, either directly or indirectly, no between ground. And all the character development in AC essentially just gets him back to how he was at the end of the game - able to stand on his own two feet and be unaffected by Sephiroth.

Note, by ‘affect’, I am referring to influence his actions by asserting the influence of the Jenova cells in Cloud, not by messing with his mind in more mundane ways. Though Cloud was strong enough to get over that, too.

Edit: Val, he was saying he was a cold blooded Mercenary killer who was in SOLDIER! Of course they were going to take advantage of that, he’d be the perfect addition to the team. She knew something was odd at the time, she didn’t quite know what was going on though. She didn’t know the depths of his fucked-upness at that stage.

#39

Cavelcade: It’s funny you say that, because I know EXACTLY how Cloud feels in AC.

When you aim towards a goal, and spend a long time single-mindedly chasing it, once you’ve pinned it down you feel incredibly down. You feel like you’ve lost your reason for living, in a way. I felt that way for a while after a math test I’d spent two weeks cramming for way back in high school. Considering FF7 takes place over a far longer period than that, for far higher stakes, I can understand why Cloud finds himself adrift.

Part of it probably also has to do with the fact that he’s a military sort of person and finds himself stuck in civilian life. Plenty of real-life soldiers have gone through that sort of depression after coming back from war.

#40

There is no indication that this is what happened with him at all though. Throughout the movie we’re just told “This is Cloud. He is depressed and fucked up. Watch him get out of it!”…which is fine, if we hadn’t already watched him do that in the game. And while I can understand why he might feel adrift, he clearly was getting himself into a life. The entire thing was just silly.

Also: Rufus should’ve been dead. I forgot to mention that.

#41

Again, RPG logic: No body, no dead.

The movie leaves a lot to conjecture. For example, we’re shown a wolf at various times throughout but never told what it means.

I’m not going to argue that FF7AC is like the most artful movie EVOR but people tend to take some of its assertions at face value without digging a little deeper. Crisis Core can also be taken as such (a game that basically throws a bunch of things at you because they’re cool) but digging deeper reveals a quite intriguing story and symbolism.

#42

I think Tifa’s problem was that she had a guilt-trip over Cloud; it was her accident while exploring a cave together that caused him to feel powerless to help her, and thus obsessed with becoming “strong enough to protect her.” Though that was his fault, she didn’t help by encouraging him on. Her attempts to help him -even getting him on Avalanche- always struck me as her trying to make up for it. She also of course had that kind of crush you see often in Anime where two friends want to be more than that but feel it awkward because they know each other since childhood and they’re more like siblings. The irony here is that Tifa herself has become physically powerful -to avenge her father’s death- but is emotionally weak. Yeah, everybody in FFVII had issues. Emo game indeed. But fun. :slight_smile:

The one character I wish we knew better is Reeves/Caith Sith. How did a guy like him end up in the highly corrupted upper ranks of Shinra? You’d think he would have been kicked out for being a “softy”. Why was he, of all people, behind the effort to infiltrate the good guys? Where did he get Cait, did he make it himself? AND WHY DID THE HEROES ALLOW A ROBOT TO JOIN THEM? Especially since it was supposed to be just a “fortune telling machine out to find out what was wrong with its prediction”. Buh? And they bought THAT story? (The prediction, if I remember correctly, foretold that Cloud and Aeris’ romance was doomed. I wonder if Reeves was really puzzled over that?)

#43

[Speaking of Tifa: can anyone tell me why, when Tifa and Scarlet face each other on top of the Sister Ray, instead of an actual battle we get- a slapfest?? Tifa has been shown all game to be a kickboxing badass, and when she finally gets the chance to kick the vile villainess’s ass all she does is SLAP HER? (If they ever remake this game, I hope they fix that.)

I always thought this was some sort of fetish on the developers’ part.

#44

Actually, is it ever established that Tifa knew Cloud was lying?(I don’t remember if it was when Sephiroth shows the truth at the Crater). He was wearing the guardsmen helmet and mask when he met Tifa in Nibelheim; and as mentioned, didn’t want her to know that he failed to make it into SOLDIER, so he wouldn’t(didn’t) have talked to her. When he did take his helmet off, she was unconscious and wounded.

#45

I think Tifa’s problem was that she had a guilt-trip over Cloud; it was her accident while exploring a cave together that caused him to feel powerless to help her, and thus obsessed with becoming “strong enough to protect her.” Though that was his fault, she didn’t help by encouraging him on. Her attempts to help him -even getting him on Avalanche- always struck me as her trying to make up for it. She also of course had that kind of crush you see often in Anime where two friends want to be more than that but feel it awkward because they know each other since childhood and they’re more like siblings. The irony here is that Tifa herself has become physically powerful -to avenge her father’s death- but is emotionally weak. Yeah, everybody in FFVII had issues. Emo game indeed. But fun. :slight_smile:

In real life, people and especially women can get real emotional with the whole ‘childhood crush’ thing. They feel like its a link to their past, to the person they were when they were young, and the feeling of recapturing your lost self can translate into feelings of intimacy and romance for a lot of people. Of course, that’s in real life, not game logic.

#46

Tifa didn’t know Cloud was in Nibelheim, but she definitely did know he wasn’t there as Sephiroth’s right-hand man - that was Zack, whom she’d met. So while she knew he had false memories, she didn’t know what the real ones were.

#47

RPG logic can go screw itself, it was at the very least heavily implied that both Tseng and Rufus had died, if only because they never showed up again. Rufus got hit dead on by a blast from weapon for god’s sake. I didn’t get the impression that FF7 was the kind of game that particularly followed traditional RPG logic - hell, a main character was murdered in front of us.

And a lot of movies/books/plays/comics leave things to conjecture, but there are always at least indications of what form the conjecture should take. A starting point might be given, or implied. With AC there was none of this. It was just them going “Look, this is cool, in it goes.” Which is fine. I enjoyed it. I just don’t consider it canon.

#48

AC doesn’t mesh with the game at all. I hope no one’s arguing that it’s anything more than really cool fan fiction, because that’s pretty oblivious.

Also, was anyone else disappointed in the AC Turks? They’re supposed to be badass, not VII’s Team Rocket.

#49

I was, up until the scene with the tunnel and the bomb. That was awesome.

#50

Shrug Just because it took things in a different direction doesn’t mean it automatically isn’t canon. In fact, that’s impossible given that Square Enix released it and e.g. Dirge of Cerberus assumes it took place. You can argue about its quality all you like but that doesn’t change the fact that it exists. O_o

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree here. Sure there was a lot left open (more than usual) but I don’t agree that translates into there being nothing there in the first place - just that they didn’t have enough screen time to give us all the hints plus all the cool fight scenes, and we all know what takes precedence there. 8p

#51

First off, and to reiterate. The only one who should be looking after Cloud is Barret. I’m almost certain Marlene would appreciate having a new mother.

Originally Posted by Hades Shinigami
[i]Aeris’ limits were good for exactly two things:

  1. Healing
  2. Killing Lost Number,[/i]

Second, you forgot about her one Limit that gives itself to another character, it makes learning limit breaks faster for the other characters (though granted it’s not that useful thanks to the effort involved in getting it), but then again I went and used the Wutai area to grind by slapping Fury on everyone and selling off the assload of Turbo Ethers that the local fauna were sweating. When I was finished both Cloud and Yuffie could use Omni-Slash and All Creation respectfully.

Also Seal Evil works against the Turks in the Gongaga forest. It saved my life the first time I took them on.

Originally Posted by Curtis
[i]
Quote:

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Valkyrie Esker View Post
I’d like to point out that when Tifa met Cloud again, and saw he was in a very, very bad state of mind (being convinced they met more recently than she did, etc.) she got him to join a terrorist organization. And later on, when he told a story that she knew DEFINITELY didn’t add up to what she knew? She didn’t say a thing. Frankly, I don’t think I could trust someone like that, especially when Cloud would be dealing with psychological issues the rest of his life after all that crap, and needs an emotional anchor. Whether she really cares for him or not, she definitely isn;t good for him.

Actually, is it ever established that Tifa knew Cloud was lying?(I don’t remember if it was when Sephiroth shows the truth at the Crater). He was wearing the guardsmen helmet and mask when he met Tifa in Nibelheim; and as mentioned, didn’t want her to know that he failed to make it into SOLDIER, so he wouldn’t(didn’t) have talked to her. When he did take his helmet off, she was unconscious and wounded.[/i][/QUOTE]

And finally, to state a probability here. The fact that he was able to give a first-hand account of the events that occurred there with greater accuracy than someone who wasn’t there probably confused the crap out of her until she went into the upside of his spikey white head and found out that he was indeed there.

#52

AC: Somebody wiser than me stated that it’s pretty meh for a movie, but for a music video it’s awesome.

#53

AC flouts almost every inch of plot and character development that took place in the game. Things might look the same cosmetically, but you’re not dealing with the same characters or the same world that FFVII was built on, at all. It’s a good stand-alone movie, but it pretends the game didn’t ever exist. It never mentions or reflects anything from the game beyond having a few of the same-looking characters with the same names. The only city ever mentioned is Midgar. They did this so you could enjoy it without ever playing the game. They’re completely disconnected.

#54

Both takes on Advent Children are correct: it IS in continuity, and meant as a link to the other sequels and spinoffs. On the other hand, the movie itself was done as a way to “recapture” the coolness of the original game (and introduce it for new fans) even if character (and story) progress gets undone in the process; not to mention, to show off what everyone looks like with our new-fangled CGI graphics, ooh! :stuck_out_tongue:

I thought it looked cool and was OK to watch, but it was redundant in many ways (Sephiroth AGAIN? Can’t you come up with a new villain? Sheesh.) But at least Cloud got to deal with Aeris’ death (hopefully.)

#55

My opinion of AC is that Square would have been better off just making a movie of
FF7 itself. Which seems to be what they really wanted to do, considering they brought back to life all the old characters, including Sephiroth, so that he and Cloud could have a long, climactic duel that was absent in FF7.

That being said, I do think AC is ‘canon’ and enriches FF7 because clearly it was an attempt to flesh out the characters in ways that Square didn’t have enough time or courage to do in FF7.