Bush is truly an amazing President.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070531/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin

He’s pretty much been able to start a new arms race with Russia, in a way starting another Cold War. The article says that Russia is strengthening its military and building more nuclear weapons in response to some US actions, such as the missle defense system and forces in Europe. I put this on Bush just because the missle defense thing is something was a stupid idea from the start. As we have seen already, Bush isn’t the best at diplomacy so this won’t be resolved anytime soon…

wtg -_-;

I eagerly await the day I open the paper to find that Bush has kicked the Australian PM in the crotch and carpet bombed a research station in the Antarctic just so he can claim to have started something on all seven continents.

Time to send in Solid Snake.

But really… goddammit, Bush.

Well I guess that’s one way of getting yourself written into the history books…

Provided of course that there’s someone left to write said books.

Well, admittedly, Putin’s an OG Soviet guy, KGB running deep in his blood. He’s sorta representative of the segment of the power structure over there that kinda thinks of this as the “Good ol’ Days”. They never really wanted to stop thinking of Poland and Lithuania et al as “their turf” and so when “we” start setting up shop there and/or pitching their involvement in NATO… They miss it, as much as they publically cry foul.

Yeah Bush is a doofus and horrible at diplomacy, but he’s not operating in a vaccuum here. Reagan didn’t end the cold war by himself, and Little Bush isn’t going to be starting it back up by himself either. They probably don’t mind at all that they’ve been given an excuse to lean far-right and start ratcheting all this stuff up again.

Bush is a big part of a bad mix, but he’s not the only spice in the marinade here.

[And to think we were kinda friends for a while; Vlad wanted so bad to hitch his “Chechen Problem” to the greater War On Terror…]

But yeah, still, shit, how do you RESTART the Cold War? What the fuck, man.

As horrible as George Bush is, I would have him than Putin. Or his poor imitator, Hugo Chavez. Bush hasn’t shut down the press yet.

Like Kaiser said, Bush is only part of this. The cynical part of me says that it was only a matter of time until soemthing like this happened. Hopefully, it can be sorted out - after all, the EU is caught in between all this and it was not the size or had the importance it now has, during the Cold War. China as well. The world is different now - back in the Cold War, it was pretty much ONLY the US vs USSR.

But I do agree that Bush and his missile defense system and all aren’t helping. Anybody have one of those nifty keyrings counting down until he has to leave office?

Of course they think that way. Any sane and honest person would, after Yeltsin’s disastrous administration either gave away or deliberately destroyed the country’s natural resources, infrastructure, and scientific assets. You don’t have to like the KGB and Soviet Union in order to understand that the collapse of the USSR was and still is a colossal humanitarian catastrophe for the overwhelming majority of its residents. A catastrophe that the West either ignored, or gloated about, or exacerbated.

So it’s bad when they think of Lithuania as “their turf,” but not bad when we support openly racist, anti-Russian, Nazi-glorifying governments in that area, draw those governments into anti-Russian military alliances and use them to surround Russia with military bases? The Russian reaction is common sense. If China started building bases in Mexico, you’d react the same way.

At the end of the Cold War, a number of agreements were reached between Russia and the United States. Both agreed to disarm and remove their military forces from Europe. Russia carried out its end of the bargain, dissolved the Warsaw Pact and removed almost all of its foreign bases. We, on the contrary, not only kept NATO, we used it to start an illegitimate war of aggression against Serbia, then stationed it around Russia’s borders. Today Zbigniew Brzezinski openly admits that the US never had any intention of keeping its word. Anyone with an ounce of sense would see that the Russians were going to react eventually, but Bush and Clinton didn’t have any sense, they were too busy gloating.

And again, rightly so. It isn’t even a point of controversy that the Chechen terrorists were affiliated with al-Qaeda and other foreign fighters. They were not <i>controlled</i> by al-Qaeda, but they obviously received money from them. Al-Qaeda always had a special emissary in Chechnya, kind of like an accountant who kept track of how to give out the jihad money.

If the American government really wants to defeat Islamic terrorism, then Russia is a natural “friend,” all the more valuable because there aren’t that many left. And due to experience, the Russian government understands the threat of terrorism much better than the American government does. But neoconservatives have always viewed Russia as their next target, after the Middle East and before China, so their brilliant strategy is to push Russia into a corner and break it up into pieces like they did with Serbia. Not only does this turn Russia into an enemy, it greatly strengthens Islamic radicals. You’re right that it’s not entirely Bush’s fault – Clinton and Bush Sr. paved the way for most of the problems we see, and Bush has just applied his singular incompetence to that same course of action. But nonetheless, if a new Cold War starts, it won’t be because of Putin.

Bush doesn’t need to shut down the press – it’s already more than willing to censor itself to appease its sponsors and target demographics. In reality, media consolidation in Russia closely follows the Western model – it is achieved by large corporations which have a kind of symbiotic relationship with the government, but nonetheless are not the government. The only reason why Western ideologues hate Putin is because he learned their lessons all too well, and is now using those lessons to promote Russia’s interests, rather than the interests of Europe, America, “the international community,” or anything else.

If the U.S. gets taught by the Russian methods in the Chechen war, that will be another humanitarian catastrophe. The Russians didn’t always support the right people in ex-Pact countries either, so they were in for some of that. Not that we should close our eyes to the other extreme, the “moral renewal” of the Kaczynskis in Poland, the acts in countries of the lower Baltic or the thoughtcrime laws of the E.U.

Putin is a far better president than Yeltsin (the guy who dissolved his country) and it’s no surprise that he uses the means at his disposal, especially the oil & gas for political leverage. Let’s not forget that the Iraq war and the resulting high oil prices strengthened him economically and allowed him to serve a huge chunk of the Russian national debt. Actions & consequences.

That doesn’t mean he’s an angel though. Eleven journalists have been murdered in the last five years, with none of these cases solved. All three national television channels are under state control. Nationalism rises, with self-appointed vigilantes beating to death foreign students.

But on the whole is the West hypocritical toward Putin? Sure.

The first humanitarian catastrophe pertaining to the Chechen war was the mass ethnic cleansing of Russians living in Central Asia. In Chechnya alone, several hundred thousand Russians were murdered or exiled by Chechen terrorists in the early nineties, to say nothing of Chechen terrorist and criminal activity in other parts of Russia. This went either totally unreported abroad, or it was gleefully cheered. The second Chechen war began with an invasion of Russian territory by Islamic terrorists led by a Saudi Arab, at a time when Yeltsin had demoralized and dismantled most of the Russian military. In light of this history, anyone in Putin’s situation would have reacted the exact same way. The West does not need to support him, but it does need to stop its sanctimonious bleating and leave him alone.

Your implication is that Putin is somehow responsible, but of those eleven, Paul Klebnikov for example was openly pro-Putin and anti-Yeltsin, and was most likely killed by criminal authorities who were ejected from power by Putin. Many others were marginal figures whose death did much more political harm to Putin than any of their writing. It’s not like Putin’s enemies have any more scruples than he does.

How is this Putin’s fault? He is uniformly hated by all Russian nationalists of this sort. He condemns them in one speech after another and supports stringent laws against extremism (which is a common European practice). The West has no argument on this issue. On one hand, they blame Putin for nationalist extremists (all of whom hate Putin in reality), on the other hand they openly support fascist groups like the NBP and Nazi apologists in the Baltic countries.

If we comfortably leave him alone we are easying the next Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, CIA flights etc. It’s the question of how far do we go before we are not significantly different than our “freedom-hating” enemies.

But as the head of the government it’s his job that the laws are upheld. No results for even one case?

[quote=]
How is this Putin’s fault? He is uniformly hated by all Russian nationalists of this sort. He condemns them in one speech after another and supports stringent laws against extremism (which is a common European practice). The West has no argument on this issue. On one hand, they blame Putin for nationalist extremists (all of whom hate Putin in reality), on the other hand they openly support fascist groups like the NBP and Nazi apologists in the Baltic countries.[/QUOTE]

The West may not, Westerners do. Groups like Nashi are meant to take the law into their hands if need be. I’m not saying the rising nationalism in Russia is solely Putin’s fault but the government has the educational & political role to dispel the ignorance that fuels racist ideas. He speaks against them but the attacks get filed under hooliganism resulting to lenient penalties. Can’t a president with 70% support carry out his agenda?

You really don’t see the hypocrisy in using America’s Guantanamo prison as a justification for yet further meddling by America into another country’s affairs?

This would hold more weight if Europe wasn’t harbouring criminals such as Boris Berezovsky, who is wanted in Russia <i>precisely</i> in connection with these kinds of crimes. In fact, Paul Klebnikov was not only pro-Putin and anti-Yeltsin, he was specifically engaged in an investigation of Berezovsky’s activities (also Berezovsky’s connections to Chechen terrorists) shortly before his murder. If you want to see that murder solved, then maybe you should consider petitioning Britain to extradite Berezovsky to Russia for some questioning. That would also go a long way toward clearing up some of the other points on that list, too.

You’ve picked up the name somewhere, but you obviously have no idea of what they’re about. Nashi is a very “antifascist” group, actually it has no other purpose than to be “antifascist.” It was deliberately created as a counterbalance to nationalist youth groups, and occasionally to give a non-violent outlet to some nationalist feelings. They do not engage in violent attacks. The most they’re capable of is to hold a rowdy demonstration and throw eggs at foreign embassies. But that’s not even their main activity. Usually they engage in some form of patriotic agitation, but of the anti-nationalist sort – they attempt to discredit nationalists, promote the idea of “multiculturalism,” say nice things about minorities, hold public denunciations of “fascism” and so forth. Nationalists view them as enemies.

If you had any idea at all about the nature of Russian nationalist groups, you’d have picked DPNI as your example. That’s a genuinely xenophobic (though still non-violent) group. And unsurprisingly, DPNI is strongly opposed to Putin and Nashi, and Putin’s administration has spoken out against it.

A series of alleged racist attacks received huge coverage in the entire Russian press, which led Putin to call for stricter penalties against hate crimes. As a result, police are if anything more likely to classify an ordinary fight as racially motivated and apply the higher penalties entailed therein than they are to downplay the importance of an actual nationalist attack. The exception to this rule is when there are racially motivated crimes against <i>Russians</i>, many of which are committed by illegal immigrants. In fact this problem is <i>precisely</i> why the nationalists have as much support as they do. And this is why Putin is in such a difficult position, as he has to attempt to uphold the rule of law without giving free rein to the real nationalists. “Westerners” do not have any argument here precisely because they have no clue about any of these intricacies, in fact they don’t want to know, because they’re more interested in controlling and humiliating Russia than they are in “human rights” or “the rule of law.”

I don’t want the US to boss around Russia. In fact I’m glad Russia is recovering from its push-around status. My main concern is that our govs think twice before committing actions their citizens disagree with; bitching when that stuff happens in other countries is a good way of reminding them. Also we agree on the Berezovsky points.

[quote=]
You’ve picked up the name somewhere, but you obviously have no idea of what they’re about. [/quote]

My point with Nashi is that a non-police group is -among others- considered responsible to prevent a possible coup against the President and this mindset was backed by Kremlin officials.

[quote=]
A series of alleged racist attacks received huge coverage in the entire Russian press, which led Putin to call for stricter penalties against hate crimes. As a result, police are if anything more likely to classify an ordinary fight as racially motivated and apply the higher penalties entailed therein than they are to downplay the importance of an actual nationalist attack. The exception to this rule is when there are racially motivated crimes against <i>Russians</i>, many of which are committed by illegal immigrants. In fact this problem is <i>precisely</i> why the nationalists have as much support as they do. And this is why Putin is in such a difficult position, as he has to attempt to uphold the rule of law without giving free rein to the real nationalists. “Westerners” do not have any argument here precisely because they have no clue about any of these intricacies, in fact they don’t want to know, because they’re more interested in controlling and humiliating Russia than they are in “human rights” or “the rule of law.”[/QUOTE]

Because a country has a policy that slights Russia, that doesn’t mean individual citizens don’t have their own opinions. Russia is not the only country facing immigration-related problems, no one said there are easy solutions about such matters. Laws should be equally applied regardless of the nationality of the victim, of course.

Anyway, I’ll be the first to admit this is armchair talk but if we can criticize other presidents’ actions I don’t see why we can’t do the same for Putin. That doesn’t mean he’s a three headed monster either.

As for the terms ‘West’ and ‘Westerners’, yeah…

“Our” governments are themselves, already, the biggest producers of “bitching” about other countries. This practice doesn’t “remind” them of anything, on the contrary it allows them to justify their own actions and allows the public to pretend like it has the world’s best interests in mind. If you want to remind them, then worry about their own actions first.

This is vague scare-mongering. Nashi isn’t even capable of “preventing a coup.” As the nationalists like to say, they can’t even fight. Nashi’s purpose is as a PR tool for the government to talk to youth and a way to discredit nationalist groups, but it’s not like anyone seriously imagines that it’s going to be fighting in the streets.

Individual citizens in the West don’t have Russia’s best interests in mind either, and they’re usually misinformed. Everyone can have a personal opinion about Putin, but that’s not the issue, the issue is whether that opinion means that the American government has some kind of right to meddle in Russia’s affairs. Which clearly it doesn’t.

I disagree with you infonick. I find Bush to be a mediocre, maybe even a bad president.

To “balance the books”, and try to understand why Putin speaks of “diktat and imperialism” and “unipolar world”; there are some interesting numbers to consider.
Russia has 25 military bases beyond its borders; the installation in Syria (a station that provides support for Russian Navy’s maneuvers in the Mediterranean Sea) is Russia’s only base that is not in a neighboring country.
The US, in comparison, has more than 700 bases abroad, quite a few of these bases are in the counties bordering Russia (Kyrgystan, Uzbekistan) or are situated in the countries that used to be Russia’s “turf” so to speak And the number of these bases is growing.
SK already mentioned that NATO countries would not ratify The Adapted Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe signed in 1999. They insist that Russia removes its military bases from Georgia and Moldova. The evacuation of Russian troops from Georgia is proceeding on schedule following the agreement reached in 2006. As for Moldova, there is a delicate matter of Pridniestrovie, Moldova’s secessionist region populated by ethnic Russians and Ukrainians; now Russia is linking troops redeployment to the peaceful resolution of the Transdniestr conflict.
If and when Russian troops leave these contested territories, the US and its allies will set up shop there almost immediately, and Russia’s fear (majority of Russians now support Putin’s ideas/policies) of being surrounded by unfriendly powers will only be amplified.

And 261 Russian journalists have been killed since the fall of the Soviet Union. To put a pro-Putin spin on these numbers, you might say that he is doing a better job in protecting the press freedom than his predecessor.

Speaking of Nashi,

This could become a household name, in Europe at least, thanks to the famous chess Champ – every time that Gary Kasparov is involved in some kind of snafu or publicized event – Nashi are somehow in the background, and of course the group’s tag is mentioned in almost every article covering the event. A few years ago one of Nashis was blamed for hitting the Champ in the head with the chessboard. Nashi were nearby during the aborted Samara trip last week; and they were hanging around the hotel yesterday while Kasyanov outlined his platform, with Kasparov in the audience.

What you’re just going to ignore me? You think you’re hot stuff?

Oh yeah… SK’s responses remind me that when I was talking about Putin’s KBG homies and their fondness for the good old days of the cold war, I should have, for the sake of balance, added that Bush’s cabinet, and the folks that are revolving in and out of it from neoconservative thinktanks, the folks whose favorite cologne is Eau de Negroponte, they all miss it just as much too.

Hence, here we are.

Regarding Yeltsin:

Journalist: “So, President Yeltsin, how would you describe the state of the Russian economy in one word?”

Yeltsin: “Good”.

Journalist: “Okay then Mr President, perhaps you would describe it in more than one word?”

Yeltsin: “Ah, in that case - not good.”

:stuck_out_tongue: