Banning "evolution"

Having a mother who works very closely with the Georgia Department of Education (I’ve met Kathy Cox, and can fully state her to be incompetent and retarded.), I guess I can comment.

A few years ago, the issue arose when a biology teacher was teaching, and a student mentioned the theory of evolution. So the teacher went into a lecture and explained the theory and compared it to creationism. A student went home and talked to some rather conservative parents about what he learned, and the teacher was soon being bewildered with complaints from parents for teaching theories, not quite grasping that creationism is also a theory. Parents sued the school or something, the case went to the highest court in the county (Cobb County if I remember correctly) and the case was thrown out, with the judge saying something along the lines of teachers being able to talk about and teach whatever fit their curriculum. Since evolution is a primary concept of biology, the teacher was well within his rights to explain the theory to the inquiring student and proceed with the lesson plan.

Since then, however, there has been a lot of talk about this nonsense. Parents have risen against the Department of Education in an effort to rid our schools of the theory of education. Right here is where it gets political; currently, the state is in the midsts of a state wide effort to get parents involved with their schools. Now, it’s great that these parents, as zealous as they are, are interested and being involved, to not listen to them is to alienate them and any other parents who are trying to get involved with their childrens academics. I see this as nothing more than propaganda, the DoE making it known that the parents concerns are being heard and considered, but I doubt that any such change will ever be made. Why exactly this is making national headlines, I don’t know.

When I was in Biology, evolution was not much of a topic we covered, and neither was creationisim. To deny one is to deny the other, and that’s basically what happened. Neither was ever really mentioned. Then again, freshman year is sort of a blur.

Anyways, I doubt anything like this will go through - because fundamentally, it is denying our children of knowledge, which is the entire point of school. Evolution and Creationisim are controversial no doubt, however they are also very pivitol to a lot of people. They are answers to questions that bug every person on the planet; Where did we come from? Apes? People in the sky? Whatever it is, it is a burning hole in our existence, and that hole will never be filled until the answers are truley discovered. In the meantime, people are always going to bicker over whose right and whose wrong, and unfortunatly, shit like this will clog our judicial system for years to come.

But I wouldn’t think much of it.

And Georgians are not inbreeds, that would be Alabama. Someone failed geography ;p

Now this was a cool little debate thing we had going, what the hell happened? It’s not like I added some GIGANTAMOUS point that destroyed everything anybody said. Or something.

Keep talking fuckers, I’m interested.

I think the debate pretty much exhausted itself by the time you got to it…

The problem is that creationism doesn’t hold the same ground as evolution. It isn’t because creationism isn’t taught that evolution shouldn’t be taught because evolution has a massive scientific background and the importance of understanding the mechanisms by which the world changes and how organisms interact bear a massive impact on the world. For example, understanding how diseases work has a basis in understanding evolutionary biology. The problem with all the fucking religious zealots and uneducated nitwits is that they equate evolution with apes spontaneously turning into people and simply point out semantic misunderstandings to misattribute the claims scientists have spent decades to push forward. Evolution occurs for a lot of reasons, one of the most important is differential reproduction. Some folks fuck more and have more kids than other folks and over time, that changes the genetic and phenotypic composition of a population. That has nothing to do with the church. To not teach evolution because a minority of close minded individuals do not like a particular subdivision, to discredit an entire field of science because of ignorance is revolting.

There. Happy?

If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve.

Originally posted by Sorcerer
Since then, however, there has been a lot of talk about this nonsense. Parents have risen against the Department of Education in an effort to rid our schools of the theory of education.

Hee Hee Heee. Awesome

That pretty much sums up the way I feel about parental “involvement” (interference) in the boards of education. :smiley:

[And I mean here in my wacky suburban California hometown as well as Kansas and Cobb County Georgia. And other places, I’m sure, as well.]

Originally posted by Sinistral
The problem with all the fucking religious zealots and uneducated nitwits is that they equate evolution with apes spontaneously turning into people and simply point out semantic misunderstandings to misattribute the claims scientists have spent decades to push forward.

Now I have to disagree. I am a Christian and have been studying uniformitarianism and catastrophism in school. I do agree with you about how the theory of evolution is misunderstood sometimes, but it stops there. I do not believe in the idea of evolution at all. I may be young still, but I know what I’m talking about. In my opinion, the theory of evolution is just a bunch of crap. There is a lot of evidence against evolution, so I just can’t see how anyone could believe that it’s true. But that is my opinion, and you are entitled to your own as well. I just needed to let all of that out. I’m sorry if I might have insulted you. Thank you.

Now this has turned into a big creationism is crap and so is evolution arguement. Both parties seem to be guilty now Essentially it comes down to what we want to believe, and what we want to believe in, and what we know…I don’t believe anyone has any right saying religious people are stupid or weak for believing in God who created the earth, but at the same time, I don’t believe anyone has any right to dismiss science and what it has taught us, in the same context.

And what else is there besides creationism and evolution? Aliens? I don’t get it.

What exactly is this evidence against evolution?

I’ve not exactly read into the subject too deeply, so there may well be something I’ve missed, but I’ve never heard much evidence against it.

What I do know, though, is that there is a great deal of evidence for evolution. Fossil records, for example, show how species develop and change over time. How do you explain the precursors to modern man like the neanderthals without accepting that some kind of change in the gene pool occured over time due to certain variations in phenotypes being naturally selected for. This theory was almost proved by Darwin on the Galapagos Islands, where he found finches which had a common anscestor but had developed in different ways due to geographical isolation.

If you’re going to say that evolution is a ‘bunch of crap,’ at least argue against the overwhelming evidence and produce some evidence for your claim, which goes against many current scientific beliefs.

Creationalism doesn’t belong in the same area as evolutionism though (at least as far as doubt is concerend). Instead of vaguely saying “a lot of evidence stacks up against evolution” you could actually post some concrete points. And do not forget that a lot of points are for evolution also (i.e. the Australopithecus genus which was a biped dated to about 3 million years ago indicating that apes were slowly going biped a lot longer than we had supposed).

You might as well say that history and astronomy shouldn’t be taught, since according to the bible the Earth only existed for 6,000 years and that they’re both each as valid as the other.

Haha- when she means “a lot of evidence against evolution” she probably means bullshit like this:

http://www.chick.com/catalog/posters/lrgposter.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp <— (because yes, a professor would get away with bullshit like that and not be fired… yeap =p)

Okay, you asked for it!

Uniformitarianism and catastrophism both have evidence against them. Like the geological column for uniformitarianism and the large amount of limestone that exists on earth for catastrophism.

I know that you said earlier that their is evidence for evolution, but there isn’t much in my opinion. Now don’t get mad at me for what I’m about to say. This is just what I think of the whole subject, so please don’t be insulted.

First, let’s start with the geological column. According to uniformitarians, each layer of rock was laid down every few million years or so. Different rock layers can be found in different parts of the world, and you can find a certain fossil by finding a certain rock layer. That’s what they think! Ever heard of the Cumberland Bone Cave? It has all sorts of different fossils of creatures that, according to uniformitarians, shouldn’t be in the same rock layer together. That is just one piece of evidence against uniformitarians.

Now for catastrophists. Limestone, that alone is proof against catastrophism. The thing about limestone is that it takes a long time just to form. Catastrophists believe that rocks and rock layers were formed from catastrophes, like the Flood mentioned in the Bible. If so, then how come there’s so much limestone on the earth? Catastrophists can’t seem to explain it.

If you really want to learn more about the subject, rent a science book that was written by a uniformitarian and another that was written by a catastrophist. If you only get one, it’ll either have strong evidence against uniformitarianism or strong evidence against catastrophism. After all, every scientist is biased. You can’t expect to get the whole picture if you only read up on one of the subjects.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you want to believe in evolution, go ahead. I’m not stopping you! If you want to believe in creationism, then good for you! Both views on how the world was created requires a lot of faith. You just have to decide which view is for you.

Originally posted by Pappy’s daughter
I know that you said earlier that their is evidence for evolution, but there isn’t much in my opinion. Now don’t get mad at me for what I’m about to say. This is just what I think of the whole subject, so please don’t be insulted.

Nobody’s getting mad or insulted, but I would like to hear why you think evolution is less believable than any other proposed explanation. Simply blanket statements like “It’s just my opinion” don’t carry any weight. It’s interesting that you bring up “faith” because faith is not a word used in describing theories. There is a doubt behind every single theory proposed, although some carry more of this doubt and some carry less (i.e. the theory of conservation of masses vs. theory of evolution)

I’m not going to reply to that bit about uniformitarianism and catastrophism because it is in no way related to evolution. It deals with the physical geographical changes. Thanks for the information, but the info is completely irrelevant.

As stated in another thread, I teach evolutionary biology for my university’s tutoring service. So don’t start with me about there lacking evidence. If you want to see some of the basics behind it, go here:

http://eee.uci.edu/02w/07125/

The site of the class as it was taught 2 years ago. They update it a bit every year with the new sites.

Hard core proof for evolution: development of antibiotic resistance in bacteria and parasites. Very VERY big problem.

Secondly, I’m actually planning about going into research and thus becoming one of the said biased scientists. While I may sound like I have a bias, I am firm in my beliefs because I am well informed thanks to classes such as these and books like Evolutionary Analysis by Freeman and Herron. But my point in saying that is that science is encouraged to be free of bias. The way people document findings is by submitting them through rigorous and nasty reviews in order to make sure that the data and conclusions presented isn’t bullshit.

You say you’re “well informed”, that there “lacks support” for evolutionary theory, yet you provide no support for your assertions. Geology isn’t evolutionary biology. I know little and care little about geology, especially considering carbon and argon dating is so precise (to name a couple). Evolution is about changes in organisms and populations.

CC, those are possibly the worst examples of biased propaganda I have ever seen. They don’t even address a lot of the evidence, and there wasn’t any actual evidence for creationism in it.

I did a search for the Cumberland Bone Cave, and although I found a lot of information about the cave and fossils inside it, it didn’t say anything about them being all in the same part of the rock strata. Even if it did, that is one site in the whole world, not enough to disprove the theory of evolution.

And besides, doesn’t the theory of creationism, or The Bible state that the Earth is 6,000 years old? I’m not too sure, don’t quote me on it, but I’m fairly certain that it was a fairly low number. If that was the case, how do they explain fossils from before that age? Radiocarbon dating can date fossils which are over 6000 years old.

Edit: I completely forgot about the evolution of bacteria. I did a research project on resistance mechanisms in bacteria, and on how they have changed over periods of time. I definately found that the frequency of certain alleles which controlled resistance had increased over the last ten years. At the time, I never thought of this as evolution or natural selection, but I guess it is. That evidence has been proven time and again in the laboratory, which surely supports the theory of evolution.

Well, uniformitarians use the theory of evolution as evidence for what they believe in, and catastrophism uses the Bible the same way.

I really don’t want to get into this any more than I already have. Like I already said once, some people prefer the theory of evolution and some prefer creationism. Take my advice and get two science books that talk about evolution. One that was written by a uniformitarian and one written by a catastrophist.

I am a Christian. I believe that God created this world. Evolutionists believe that over the course of billions of years is how this world was created. I said it takes great faith to believe in either view because it’s true. It takes faith to believe that God created the world, it takes faith to believe that evolution is how the world was formed. Believe in whatever you want to, but I believe in God.

Originally posted by Pappy’s daughter
Well, uniformitarians use the theory of evolution as evidence for what they believe in, and catastrophism uses the Bible the same way.

1-There are more than uniformitarians in this world
2-Upon what basis do you make these assertions?
3-Even then, do all people who believe in evolution have to uniformitarians?

Originally posted by Pappy’s daughter
don’t want to get into this any more than I already have.

Therefore you essentially said nothing.

Originally posted by Pappy’s daughter
[b]
I am a Christian. I believe that God created this world.

[/b]

That’s besides the point. That’s not what we’re arguing.

Originally posted by Pappy’s daughter

Evolutionists believe that over the course of billions of years is how this world was created.

That’s not an accurate statement. The world wasn’t created over the course of billions of years. (1st law of thermodynamics -> haw, not even evolutionary biology).

Originally posted by Pappy’s daughter

I said it takes great faith to believe in either view because it’s true. It takes faith to believe that God created the world, it takes faith to believe that evolution is how the world was formed. Believe in whatever you want to, but I believe in God.

All you did was assert that you believed in God with no support for any of your claims, merely that you refused to believe in something else which had nothing to do with any of the claims you’ve presented.

Believe in whatever you want to, but I believe in God.

Many people who believe in God also believe in evolution, they’re not mutually exclusive. Some people believe that evolution is ‘God’s plan.’

Originally posted by Evangelion
[b]Now this has turned into a big creationism is crap and so is evolution arguement. Both parties seem to be guilty now Essentially it comes down to what we want to believe, and what we want to believe in, and what we know…I don’t believe anyone has any right saying religious people are stupid or weak for believing in God who created the earth, but at the same time, I don’t believe anyone has any right to dismiss science and what it has taught us, in the same context.

And what else is there besides creationism and evolution? Aliens? I don’t get it. [/b]

I don’t think people are weak and stupid for their beliefs, but the reasons why they believe and their resulting behavior. And now we start going into philosophy and away from the science.

Originally posted by AngelOfTheLion
And besides, doesn’t the theory of creationism, or The Bible state that the Earth is 6,000 years old? I’m not too sure, don’t quote me on it, but I’m fairly certain that it was a fairly low number. If that was the case, how do they explain fossils from before that age? Radiocarbon dating can date fossils which are over 6000 years old.

Obviously there are many ancient things in this world. I don’t think the Bible actually states the earth is 6000 years old, merely that’s the assumptions <i>drawn</i> from people who read it, because that’s the basic timespan (don’t quote me on that one). The Bible deals with a timeline of 6000 years, it doesn’t outright say that’s how old it is.

EDIT:

Originally posted by Sinistral
I don’t think people are weak and stupid for their beliefs, but the reasons why they believe and their resulting behavior. And now we start going into philosophy and away from the science.

Well that’s sort of like the same thing isn’t it? As inane and silly as they are, people still have a right, and in their own mind, those thoughts aren’t inane and silly. Though I can agree with the behavior comment, definately.

Believe in whatever you want to, I don’t care. I have done research on both sides of these theories. I choose to believe in creationism and you can choose to believe in what you want. If you want references from me, get the book “Exploring Creation with General Science”. That’s where I got the whole Cumberland Bone Cave thing. I obviously don’t know everything about this subject, I’m only a teenager! I’ll probably look into the subject more.

If I look like I’m repeating myself, that’s because I’m fighting for my beliefs (ooooh, the dreaded “b” word again, ooooh) just as you are! Why else would we be posting so much to prove that the other is wrong (or doesn’t have enough info on the subject)?

This is my last post. I’m obviously the only one here who believes in creationism. Right now I’m sort of flustered, and I really don’t want to get banned. So please at least try to understand what I’m saying. I’m going to try to understand what you said too. Thank you.