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The Core Shrine Reviews
#11

Okay, this has been simmering in my head for long enough.

Wil, I agree that everyone has the right to write whatever they want. But it is also everyone’s right to point out when it does not make sense, and it is not bullying to do so. It is merely a reaction to reading something, and if somebody puts enough effort into smacking something together and publish it for people to see, they should be prepared that not everyone is going to shower their writing in roses when it’s riddled with spelling errors and defies the laws of logic. That’s how the world works. You are free to think that we should all coddle every little pwecious snowflake and never critizise them even if it is intended to help them improve, and I’m in my full right to think that you can kindly take your annoying “don’t like, don’t reeeeead!” philosophy and go somewhere where you’re not disturbing people who actually care about decent writing.

On that subject, do note that the original poster asked for reviews in the title of the thread, so your point is moot anyway.

#12

Weiila, your absolutely right! However, Charlemagne’s response was a little too overboard (you have to agree with that!) and for all we know this guy might have honestly wanted some decent feedback for his work (little to his knowledge that there are fairly open-minded people on this board that speak their mind. Therefore I believe the main point of this whole thing was just to provide somewhat polite constructive criticism as oppose to saying their work is just a piece of garbage (which practically summed up Charlemagne’s prior response.) Either way the guy that posted this thread probably doesn’t care about it anymore!

#13

Charlemagne is a pretty much the resident troll, you shouldn’t take anything he says seriously :slight_smile:

As for Wil, this is a discussion we’ve had before and it has nothing to do with the original poster.

#14

OK, Weiila. Let’s take a practical, realistic look at the matter:

The internet is free for anybody to post their stuff (in most of the world.) Freedom of expression and all that.

Of course, certain websites have rules about what can be posted in them. That’s fair too; if a site demands that your fiction contain no misspellings and otherwise be of at least minimal quality, then the author must respect them. But most sites don’t have such rules. Therefore, readers used to good writing have no right to demand it in most cases.

Now let’s look at the people who post the stories. Many are serious in their desire to write good fiction, and follow their own self-imposed limits such as “no misspellings” “no changing the continuity” “don’t create Mary Sue characters” etc. Either because they expect to be professional writers some day, or just because that’s how they enjoy their writing. I am one of these, as are you.

But there’s lots of people who don’t write good stories, for one of two reasons: a) they simply lack the skill to be good writers and they don’t realize it (or don’t care) or b) they are just writing on impulse. Like those fangirls who go OH MY GOD I LOVE EDWARD IN FULL MOON I MUST WRITE A STORY WHERE HE FALLS IN LOVE WITH MEEE! Just to get it out of their system.

People put their stories online because they want them to be seen by others or… because THEY want to see them posted online.Some don’t care if they never get a single hit. They just want to be able to boast “I have a story in the Internet!!!” And they have the RIGHT to do so.

If you want to post a story because you want commentary, then yes, you should be aware that you’ll receive criticism, most likely negative because it’s easier to be a jerk than nice (not to mention it seems to be the default Net culture setting.) Of course, many people often point out flaws in the story because they WANT to help the author improve (again, you and I are like that) but if it isn’t phrased it correctly it can sound just like trolling. And while it’s easy to say “he posted it so he better ne ready to take it!” you and I know that people in the real world, especially teenage girls, CAN be emotionally fragile and a harsh rejection of their budding talent online can do a lot of harm to them. How many great writers would never have produced anything if they listened to exceeding harsh criticism? (To those of you who don’t care about that: GO TO HELL.)

Should the writer be aware of this? Of course- but they aren’t always. Some fanfic writers are CHILDREN. Maturity isn’t an automatic thing you know. Others are just out of the loop with reality. The point is that not everyone is ready to take harsh criticism, and many readers don’t consider this fact, acting as if because something is posted online it MUST meet their standards. No.

Also, let’s not forget that, believe it or not, there ARE people who like the stuff we wouldn’t do. Yes, Mary Sues have their fans (or stuff like Twilight would never sell). So, do you ever stop to think, maybe this particular story and its rule-breaking style isn’t meant for me?

To use a baseball allegory: I suck at sports. I would never demand to join a team. But if I wanted to practice at a public park, I can do so, and the public cannot stop me (They can jeer, but that only shows what jerks they are.) If someone comes over with advice, I can thank him or her for it… or ignore it and just keep playing my way, whatever makes ME happy. If they don’t like the way I play they can go watch someone else play. And who knows? Maybe someone will watch just because they like my style! :wink:

I don’t know what the case in this thread is. Maybe the author is into weird stories. Maybe he’s just trolling us. And yes he asked for commentary, but are you sure he understands the kind of reaction he’d get here? Maybe in the last place he or she posted this was the norm, and he/she is just testing the reactions here. I just wanted to remind people of this.

To sum up: If I see a story posted online, I’ll read it if I feel like it. If I feel the author could use some tips I’ll give them, but with no expectation that they will be applied. And if they are not, I’ll just stop reading his/her stories. I sure won’t demand that they improve… unless of course, I’m PAYING for the material. That’s the difference between fanfic and professional writing. You get paid to entertain your audience, and you’d better deliver. Fans need to stop applying this mentality to fan fiction.

Oh, and Weiila? I’m not taking my opinion on the matter anywhere. If you don’t like my posts on the matter you can just… not read them. (Saw that coming didn’t you? :wink: )

#15

Oh Wil. What I’m talking about is mainly telling somebody “you know, this story is cute but citadel isn’t spelled “citedal” as you keep writing, and seriously, the idea that all paladins must keep any promise they make, even if they make them while dangled over a cliff and under threat, is silly and illogical.” When somebody puts up something like that, it just makes them look stupid. Especially when they expect only praise for something they didn’t put any effort in.

Oh well, there are worse things to that I will criticize because I find them honestly tiresome and vile, as when your little emotional teenage girls REPEATEDLY writes about rape as something that leaves the person in question “frightened, shaken and fulfilled.” I will tell them that’s disturbing and wrong. Why do I do this? Well, I care about writing. A lot of people do, that’s why they read a lot, and when you’re passionate about something, you’re going to react to seeing it abused. Also it’s pretty damn disturbing how many people think rape is hot, while we’re on that subject. What can I say, I find it difficult to ignore things that annoy me.

But we’re never going to agree on this matter, and no, I didn’t read your rant but I glanced over it at least. We both already know the other’s thoughts on this matter after all. I don’t expect you to read any of this either, so whatever.

#16

I’m not trolling by saying that the story was shit. I’m Say it was shit because that is what it was. Now it was a thread about wanting a story review, that’s what he got. I didn’t go out of my way to say “it’s dumb, you’re dumb” I made individual points, and there they are. If it had been a good story, I would have made a more productive review.

Wil, this website does not give you freedom of speech, it gives you freedom to write whatever you want as long as it is not against the moderators point of views. I.E. Sinistrals view. Weiila is a nice lady and respects other people opinions. However, you can’t complain that you’re not allowed to write whatever you want when there are rules saying blahg blaglakjdsf;lakjdsf;lkjgpoigpoirew later guys.

#17

But we’re never going to agree on this matter,

If you say so.

and no, I didn’t read your rant but I glanced over it at least.

Gee, thanks.

We both already know the other’s thoughts on this matter after all

No we didn’t.

. I don’t expect you to read any of this either, so whatever.

I guess you don’t know me as well as I thought. Oh well, at least other people may read my “rant” and hopefully benefit from it…

#18

See how childish I seemed when telling you I didn’t read your post, honey? :slight_smile:

#19

Yeah, I had no problem with it personally, I just thought that newcomers wouldn’t be so aware of his true intentions. But in terms of the rest of you RPGC veterans (which I mean in a positive way :cool:), the sarcasm and witty remarks is great fun to sit and read! :stuck_out_tongue:

Like I mentioned above, it’s probably best to sound more inviting to newcomers (by that I mean a little more polite) because to be honest, the majority of people that have joined the Agora haven’t remained active, and the way we address them (not just you, but all of us… including me :P) could probably be more welcoming! But I have to admit I enjoy reading your comments in the forum (trolling or not) It keeps this place alive and brimming with excitement!

One of the few things I believe… “Controversy Creates Cash!” :smiley:

#20

I don’t get your point here.

“Controversy Creates Cash!”

Where’s my part!? :stuck_out_tongue:

#21

I was refering to your trumpeting of not reading 984’s posts. Anyway, we’ll just have to agree to disagree (again). In my view, when an author puts up a piece of fanfiction they do it because they want to show it to people, and by chosing to read it the reader automatically makes a silent agreement to look at the author’s work, trusting the author to not shit all over the original tale the reader and the author both make naturally assumed claims to be fans of. If the author breaks that silent agreement, the reader ought to be free to bring it up. Even good stories can always get better and concrit is something that authors who actually give a rat’s ass are generally thankful for.

I’ve read too much bullshit fanfiction in my day to bother shutting up any longer, and I won’t be silenced so bah, and bah again. Also there’s a huge difference between concrit and flaming, though a lot of people unfortunately don’t know the difference.

#22

When you’ve been at RPGC as long as I have, you figure out how to tell what kind of poster someone is right off the bat. If I thought that this guy was actually going to ever post again, I would have been a little more polite. But I see he has made one, bad post. My instincts tell me that he will never post here again regardless of my participation. We’ll see, maybe this time I will be proven mistaken. But usually I have a good instinct on this. To my knowledge I have never “trolled” the media forum, out of respect for Weiila. If i ever DO go to the Media forum I try to be as polite as possible cuz she’s a nice lady.

This however, is the Shrine Review forum, which shouldn’t exist anyway cuz nobody works on shrines anymore.

#23

Since when have I been “trumpeting” about it? I don’t read his posts because I can’t stand him, which is my right; he’s hardly the only person here I ignore. But that has nothing to do with this topic anyway.

Anyway, we’ll just have to agree to disagree

That is fair. Remember, my examination above wasn’t meant just for you; I’ve been meaning to sit down and write a full examination of the topic for a while, so I just took the chance.

I’ve read too much bullshit fanfiction in my day to bother shutting up any longer,

That explains a lot.

and I won’t be silenced so bah, and bah again.

Nobody asked for that.

Also there’s a huge difference between concrit and flaming, though a lot of people unfortunately don’t know the difference.

That was one of my points above, if you choose to read it fairly.

Or better yet, forget about it.

#24

Why dont you two just get a room already?

#25

Why don’t you two just get a room already?

:hahaha;:hahaha;:hahaha;

#26

Do you understand what “Get a room” means in america?

Also this The Room video you posted is not funny. I would rather watch the movie they’re sposed to be making fun of.

#27

Well, I guess your right. I haven’t been anywhere near as active as you or many others for that matter (and I am relatively new to forums in general… only recently becoming an active poster.) So yeah, I guess I got to pick them out better.

This however, is the Shrine Review forum, which shouldn’t exist anyway cuz nobody works on shrines anymore.

I have to say that this sub-forum is essential. I believe there are still people working on shrines (I myself am one of them) and I would like to see this website continue it’s long and proud tradition of shrining! Shrines are what made RPGC so great… so many people have made their contribution through it… and in turn, left their mark. I also hope to contribute as this website, has served well over the years as well as to many others! I understand that RPGC has created a “wiki” and intends to continue the shrines in that way… but it’s not the same! jumping out of his seat and yelling… tears coming to his eyes! I intend to question this in the polling forum shortly… just to get everyone else’s ideas!

#28

Helios: You’re a breath of fresh air :slight_smile: We need more newbies like you.

Charle: When I call you troll, it’s in the nicest way possible, though you did earn some creeper points in that thread about missing my sister.

Right, back to the discussion about writer morals, last round and then I’ll really leave it.

“Nobody asked for that” you say, Wil, but what you really are saying is “if you don’t have anything nice to say…”, which can be translated to the fanbrat howl of “don’t like, don’t reeead!”. Which you’ve also said in other words.

I’ll lay down why I feel like I do about concrit and fanauthors like this:

When I was taking care of the RPGC fanfic archive there were loads of good stories submitted. But there was also an awful lot of crap, and I spent countless hours delicately constructing silk gloved responses to these authors and in the nicest way possible explain that no, your script fic based on toilet humor isn’t quite what we’re looking for, and sorry but your Mary Sue/Sephiroth porn is too graphic to be published. Then there were those who plagarized (one mindnumbingly stupid one plagarized the dialogue out of one of MY stories and sent it to me) and those got a bit harsher responses but it was still overly polite and apologetic from my end. Not forgetting those crapfic authors who harassed me until I agreed to post their half-assed stuff because I was too nice to hit Ignore like I should have.

It got really, really frustrating. And what finally made me go “screw this!” and toss my moldy silk gloves in the trash was this. In short, a guy comes in and posts a really bland, boring and stupid script fic. People kindly (well, apart from Sorc) tell him that they didn’t find it good, and why. And he throws the most drama queeny brat tantrum I’ve seen for something like that. Then I come in and try to chill things, writing another one of my silken-gloved reviews but all the while I was wondering why I was trying to pacify this little brat who aggressively turned on my friends FOR NOTHING. Sorc’s reaction to the whole thing was freakin’ cathartic to me because he said things I had been thinking for years in response to this RPGDude. Val, Chris-Chris and the others did NOT deserve that kind of idiotic response, and that was the final drop for me.

Also, on 984 and you:

(Offhand, the search function on the new forum version is awful.)

I’m not bringing it up because I think you’re breaking 984’s heart with this. I brought it up as an example of why I didn’t read your post about writing: Not only do I already know your points and wasn’t interested in rereading them, I also find you pretty childish. That Marvel thread is a prime example of why I think so: You post a piece that has a bend that by its very topic invites to discussion, and then you get annoyed when, GASP, people on a discussion board wants to DISCUSS it with you. Val sums my thoughts up pretty well on the second page, as well as Eden with his second line above Val’s post.

And I realize it’s hypocritical of me to critize you for not wanting a discussion on something when I’m not (re)reading your arguments, but that’s one rock I have to throw in this glass house. I don’t aim to win this discussion because I know it’s pointless to try to convert anybody in viewpoints like these. At this point I’m just venting annoyance that has built for ages, and I can admit that.

Okay I’m done, I feel much more at ease.

#29

Helios: IT’S YOU’RE!!!

Weiila: Can you blame me?

#30

I disagree. If someone thinks their writing isn’t good enough to be read they may add a small tag along the lines of “Please don’t read this” and save the reader the hassle. The time you spend to read [bad fanfic] could be used to read [favourite author]. The reason you read a story is because you hope it’ll be interesting*.

*or a trainwreck, eh, Weiila?