Letting your emotions, pride, and confidence rest on the approval of someone else? That’s a good way to be really clingy. I bet you probably agree with the notion of people ‘completing’ each other in a relationship. I like to think of it in a bigger picture: It takes two ‘complete’ people to have a truly good relationship.
When you stop putting your sense of self-worth (and I feel there is little difference between ‘self-worth’ and your sense of confidence, pride, and emotional state) in the hands of someone else, and get rid of your looming insecurities that your partner is going to cheat on you…THAT’S when you finally get around the stupid riff raff of an immature, rocky relationship, and start reaping the benefits of a truly excellent relationship.
If I were you I’d go with the more attractive one (unless they are both unattractive in which case you’re better off sticking with what you’ve got rather than having to start all over with a new gf).
Then again I don’t have a gf or a midget fetish currently, so whadda I know?
That said my best advice is to just stick with your gf, especially if the three of you work in the same store (a second gf is just not worth building an ill-repute over).
Originally Posted by Dragons Revenge There’s this other girl at work who’s been getting me to hang out with her at the bars.
You’re playing a dangerous game there buddy. I can understand her being cool and all, but a female leading a man into a bar is like a siren leading wayward sailors to their doom. If you want to go to the bar for the sake of hanging out then there’s no reason you shouldn’t go just be careful of the girl’s level of aggression towards you (there’s no reason to get drunk in a bar, and if you are still worried about the peer-pressure you can just volunteer for designated driver).
Your sense of self worth is ALWAYS going to rest in the hands of other people, whether it’s a girl or not. Unless you’re just going to straight up deny the fact that humans are social and like to feel like they’re contributing to the lives of others.
Also, I didn’t say it was okay to let every iota of your self worth rest on any one person’s approval. You’re thinking in extremes, I’m trying to point out that there are degrees of this shit. I agree that you can have an excellent relationship when you’re not emotionally attached to someone enough to care if they cheat on you or not. It’s called a fuck buddy, but not everyone is into that, is all I’m saying.
Some people want to have someone they know they can rely on. Someone to talk to about shit that’s too dangerous to talk to anyone else about. Someone to put their trust in. And when two people share this kind of trust, it’s powerful thing. You’re right that a lot can go wrong, but that’s the nature of almost everything that’s truly worth having.
Everyone wants different things. Everyone has a different way of figuring out which risk justifies which reward. It’s all a matter of personal taste. Some people thrive in really emotionally charged relationships, some just want to take it easy and be more of a buddy to their GF. Either way is fine, but know that what you put into a relationship is what you’ll get out of it. If you ever want to feel truly in love with someone, you’re going to have to make yourself vulnerable at some point. That’s all there is to it.
Also, looming insecurities that someone is going to cheat on you are bad, and totally not what I’m talking about.
You’ll have plenty of chances to prove for your girlfriend your “independence” and “rugged masculinity.” You can say, “No, <i>we’re</i> not watching Love Actually, <i>I’m</i> watching Rush Hour and you can do what you want,” or, “Yes, I <i>really am</i> playing football and that’s why you can’t visit me today,” or, “Here’s a book, I’ll be playing Halo.”
Going to a bar alone with another girl, to drink and talk with just her, repeatedly, will not prove either of those things. There’s nothing masculine about being sweet and romantic behind your girlfriend’s back. Your girlfriend will not be impressed. Maybe she’ll dump you. But more likely, she’ll become clingy, and constantly seek reassurance that she’s “making the grade.” She’ll begin to see flirtation where you <i>really are</i> just making conversation with girls.
Dishonesty in relationships is always ugly. If you’re looking elsewhere, the masculine approach is to cut the knot and move on. Don’t “wait till you’re sure there’s something ready.”
That’s false. To say that my sense of self-worth is not invested in other people is not to deny the fact that humans are social beings. My self-worth lies in my own perception of myself. That’s why it’s called SELF worth. I love the fact that I’m a good drummer, singer, and composer. I’m not a great dancer, but I love that I can get up and do it with no inhibitions. I love the fact that I can do just about ANYTHING with no worries about feeling nervous or stupid or whatever the hell. I love things about MYSELF. THAT is what makes me feel like a good person. If someone doesn’t like that about me, okay, tough - and sometimes, it really is tough. However, the truth in the end is, if someone doesn’t like you for the things you do and say - be it anything from what you like to do to who you like to associate yourself with - then they’re not worth your time. It’s not worth getting myself down about.
Also, I didn’t say it was okay to let every iota of your self worth rest on any one person’s approval. You’re thinking in extremes, I’m trying to point out that there are degrees of this shit. I agree that you can have an excellent relationship when you’re not emotionally attached to someone enough to care if they cheat on you or not. It’s called a fuck buddy, but not everyone is into that, is all I’m saying.
Whoa, what the fuck!? I didn’t say anything about a fuck buddy at all. I have a perfectly WONDERFUL, MONOGAMOUS relationship with my girlfriend. We spend a shitload of time together, and we love each other so much it makes people around us wanna fucking puke. That being said, if she wants to go to the bars with her friends - of which she has plenty of female AND male friends - I don’t trip. I know she loves me, and I have no hang-ups about her fidelity. The reverse is true, as well. Neither of us get upset when the other hangs out with certain people, and the relationship is happy, and jealousy-free.
Some people want to have someone they know they can rely on. Someone to talk to about shit that’s too dangerous to talk to anyone else about. Someone to put their trust in. And when two people share this kind of trust, it’s powerful thing. You’re right that a lot can go wrong, but that’s the nature of almost everything that’s truly worth having.
…And when two people have that, and one person throws it all away due to their partner going out to a bar with a platonic friend of the opposite sex…that says to me that there isn’t a whole lot of trust going on in the first place.
If that’s all it takes to ruin your trust in someone, your trust isn’t very well-founded. The funny thing is, this is just one thing of many that can happen in a relationship.
Take what I just said about my girlfriend, for instance. If you are thinking “You’re not jealous because you have no emotional attachment to this girl/don’t really love her” or “She’s probly cheating on you left and right”, you’re wrong.
Perhaps if I didn’t know her well, that would be one thing; however, we’re a COUPLE because our trust is already well-rooted. This lady took care of me when I have a two-week-long strep throat from hell, learned to play video games just so we’d have another thing to do, cooks meals with me three times a week, helps pay the bills, comes out to all my band’s shows (and even my performances for ensembles she doesn’t care about), and SO MANY OTHER THINGS that show me that she enjoys my time and is a dependable, trustworthy person. The very thought of my ignoring ALL THOSE THINGS and deeming her some sort of two-timing whore because she wants to go to a bar with a friend who happens to be male…well, that’s just dumb.
Everyone wants different things. Everyone has a different way of figuring out which risk justifies which reward. It’s all a matter of personal taste. Some people thrive in really emotionally charged relationships, some just want to take it easy and be more of a buddy to their GF. Either way is fine, but know that what you put into a relationship is what you’ll get out of it. If you ever want to feel truly in love with someone, you’re going to have to make yourself vulnerable at some point. That’s all there is to it.
Also, looming insecurities that someone is going to cheat on you are bad, and totally not what I’m talking about.
Sure, yeah, everyone wants different things, woohoo. Everyone has a different way of doing stuff. Yipee. You can lecture me all you want about how everyone wants something different out of their relationship, and yadda yadda, but to say something to me like “What you put into a relationship is what you’ll get out of it”, as if to assume that my advice would result in some sort of shallow relationship, that’s just false. Someone who gets controlled in their relationship is gonna be unhappy…in IN FACT, people who are the victims in clingy-type relationships are MORE likely to cheat, in my experience. Think about that.
And seriously, who the fuck said this was about masculinity? This is about standing up for yourself. And also did anyone say “Do this behind the back of your girlfriend, Dragon’s Revenge”? (Maybe someone did, I didn’t read every single post) That’s ridiculous. The point is not to LIE, the POINT is the opposite - to be HONEST, but stick to your guns.
I love the fact that I’m a good drummer, singer, and composer.
Is it good enough for you be good in your own opinion alone? Would it bother you if everyone else LOATHED your drumming, as long as you got a kick out of it? I wouldn’t play guitar if people hated me for it.
Whoa, what the fuck!? I didn’t say anything about a fuck buddy at all. I have a perfectly WONDERFUL, MONOGAMOUS relationship with my girlfriend. We spend a shitload of time together, and we love each other so much it makes people around us wanna fucking puke. That being said, if she wants to go to the bars with her friends - of which she has plenty of female AND male friends - I don’t trip.
Of course not, you have no reason to. But say she did cheat on you. Would you be upset or no? Chances are the answer is yes if you love her as much as you say you do. That’s what I’m getting at. There’s a difference between being vulnerable and being paranoid. I said in my other post, hitting the bars is okay, but only if DR makes it okay. There is a right and wrong way to do it, if he gives a shit about his GF.
The fuck buddy comment wasn’t about you. It was to point out one end of the spectrum. I don’t know anything about your relationship and I’m not gonna pretend to.
…And when two people have that, and one person throws it all away due to their partner going out to a bar with a platonic friend of the opposite sex…that says to me that there isn’t a whole lot of trust going on in the first place.
It says to me that the partner didn’t try very hard to make their significant other feel less worried about something they have every right to be worried about. Most people don’t go to bars and get smashed with members of the opposite sex because they wanna have a friendly chat. It’s unconventional and it’s safe to assume that no matter how much someone trusts you, they’re going to start thinking things.
If that’s all it takes to ruin your trust in someone, your trust isn’t very well-founded. The funny thing is, this is just one thing of many that can happen in a relationship.
Take what I just said about my girlfriend, for instance. If you are thinking “You’re not jealous because you have no emotional attachment to this girl/don’t really love her” or “She’s probly cheating on you left and right”, you’re wrong.
Perhaps if I didn’t know her well, that would be one thing; however, we’re a COUPLE because our trust is already well-rooted. This lady took care of me when I have a two-week-long strep throat from hell, learned to play video games just so we’d have another thing to do, cooks meals with me three times a week, helps pay the bills, comes out to all my band’s shows (and even my performances for ensembles she doesn’t care about), and SO MANY OTHER THINGS that show me that she enjoys my time and is a dependable, trustworthy person. The very thought of my ignoring ALL THOSE THINGS and deeming her some sort of two-timing whore because she wants to go to a bar with a friend who happens to be male…well, that’s just dumb.
I didn’t say you had to be jealous to have a good relationship. I said you have to make yourself vulnerable, which you are. Anyway, I agree.
but to say something to me like “What you put into a relationship is what you’ll get out of it”, as if to assume that my advice would result in some sort of shallow relationship, that’s just false. Someone who gets controlled in their relationship is gonna be unhappy…in IN FACT, people who are the victims in clingy-type relationships are MORE likely to cheat, in my experience. Think about that.
Your advice COULD result in a shallow relationship, not because it’s bad advice, but because you phrased it in such a way as to suggest that ever letting anyone have any bearing on your life whatsoever is a pussy attitude to have or something.
I told you like 3 posts ago that I technically AGREED with you, but I wouldn’t phrase it that way. That was my ONLY gripe.
Would you like me to list more things that enrich my life that I’m NOT good at? I dunno, bowling. Writing. Fighting games. Critiquing. The way I reason things out. My tolerance for damn near anything in a social situation (NOT to be confused with anything having to do with someone’s perceptions). That’s too bad that you wouldn’t play guitar if no one liked you for it. I can tell you something: My personality has put me at odds with many people, but I’ve never changed unless I felt like I needed to. I think I’m a better person for that.
Of course not, you have no reason to. But say she did cheat on you. Would you be upset or no? Chances are the answer is yes if you love her as much as you say you do. That’s what I’m getting at. There’s a difference between being vulnerable and being paranoid. I said in my other post, hitting the bars is okay, but only if DR makes it okay. There is a right and wrong way to do it, if he gives a shit about his GF.
Most people, I think, have stated the ‘right way’, but in terms that are pretty blunt. Obviously, I think few people disagree that DR should be like “Look, I’m going out with this girl. No, nothing’s happening between me and her.” However, if she is like “OMG OMGZ” I don’t think he should have to settle for less. If this ‘chick b’ is cool enough that he wants to be friends with her, it should be her prerogative, and he shouldn’t have to go through a bunch of hassle every time he wants to have a friend of the opposite sex. THAT’S what I’M saying.
The fuck buddy comment wasn’t about you. It was to point out one end of the spectrum. I don’t know anything about your relationship and I’m not gonna pretend to.
Then, my apologies for being presumptuous.
It says to me that the partner didn’t try very hard to make their significant other feel less worried about something they have every right to be worried about. Most people don’t go to bars and get smashed with members of the opposite sex because they wanna have a friendly chat. It’s unconventional and it’s safe to assume that no matter how much someone trusts you, they’re going to start thinking things.
This line of reasoning pretty much hinges on the idea that one or both of them are gonna get completely shitfaced. Beyond that, my next few paragraphs expanded on the “if that’s all that it takes to…” etc.
I didn’t say you had to be jealous to have a good relationship. I said you have to make yourself vulnerable, which you are. Anyway, I agree.
Okay, I guess that’s true…but I dunno, I think vulnerability has little to do with what we’re talking about. You say that this is something his girlfriend has “every right to be worried about”, but ‘worried’ in this case means ‘jealous.’ You can be emotionally vulnerable without having a freakout about your girlfriend hanging out with a dude, or vice versa.
Your advice COULD result in a shallow relationship, not because it’s bad advice, but because you phrased it in such a way as to suggest that ever letting anyone have any bearing on your life whatsoever is a pussy attitude to have or something.
No, I didn’t at all.
‘Don’t let your girl run your life.’ Don’t let ANYONE make the rules but you - this isn’t an issue of masculinity, like I said before, it’s a matter of standing up for yourself.
‘If she gets all enraged over that, imagine the implications further down the road.’
This isn’t assuming that she is; in fact, DR has not even posted again saying how she reacted to the whole thing. This is merely meant to point out that if she has a shit fit over such a thing, or even just gets really upset or depressed, it could be a sign that she has some issues that SHE needs to work out (or, as I said after my first post, both of them could work on it if they’re a very serious couple), and that it’s immature for someone to put so much pressure on another person.
If you were talking about my second post, before we started this little debate between the two of us…well, the tone of that post was hardly even aggressive.
I told you like 3 posts ago that I technically AGREED with you, but I wouldn’t phrase it that way. That was my ONLY gripe.
Yet, you also said this, which is the biggest point of contention in the entire thread (i.e how to handle DR’s situation):
But if I were you and I cared about her as much as you said you do, I’d either take her with me or opt out.
Which when you started responding specifically to me, you said something that indicated to me just why: You probably think that a certain amount of jealousy in a relationship is healthy, as it shows a natural concern for your partner. We’ve been debating over this disagreement, the deeper reasoning of why you feel that DR should either ‘take her with (him) or opt out.’.
I agree that you can have an excellent relationship when you’re so dependant on someone else that you attempt to rule their life. It’s called slavery, and not everyone’s into it, either.
The kind of trust where they would assume you were not going do something that would hurt them out of an arbitrary feeling that they own you in some way, even?
Secondly, one can have that person regardless of who either party sleeps with.
See, I really, really don’t understand why people get upset at this. It’s simply not in my nature. If I love someone, why wouldn’t I want them to be happy? If it would make her happy to sleep with some guy, she should go for it. This isn’t purely theoretical, either, it has happened to me and it hasn’t been a big deal.
Interesting range of responses here. Like I said, she’s just a work buddy (That’s such a derivitive statement). I still haven’t brought it up yet. I’m probably just going to drop it.
I have no alterior motives whatsoever. It is exactly what I said it was. It’s hanging out with a friend from work who happens to be lacking a penis. Like I said, the more friends the better, and like someone else said, the more drinking buddies, the better. My girlfriend knows I love her, and wouldnt cheat on her, and this other girl knows I have g/f and wouldnt cheat on her, and she isn’t interested in me in that way either. (Plus she has kids, which is an immediate red flag, so I wouldnt date her anyway). Guess I should’ve said all that to begin with.
Leaving aside your specific case and back to the discussion in general… I think there’s something to be said for caring about other people’s opinions. It’s called empathy. Even if you don’t agree with it, doing something because you don’t want someone else to be hurt - regardless of how reasonable that is - doesn’t mean you’re subsuming your self-worth. It means you care enough about someone not to hurt them. It means you care so much about them you’re willing to make concessions to avoid hurting them.
Here’s an example. I’m 28 years old, and travel every so often for work. When I get to where I’m going, the first thing I do is call my mother. Now, I know my mother worries incessantly, and I know I’m an adult and don’t need to do this. Some people might even call me a mama’s boy. But the truth is that I do it because I know that not doing it will cause her pain. Precisely because I have an excellent relationship with her and care about her, that’s why I do it.
Now, it’s important that this not be a one-way street. One person in the relationship can’t always be making concessions to the other. Relationships are about give and take - more precisely, they’re about giving, period. If one doesn’t feel that he or she can give to the other person in the relationship - and to give painful things, not easy things - then that relationship is inevitably going to be rocky. Again, with moderation - there’s a fine line between giving towards a relationship and sacrificing yourself for it.
Trust is a great word, and building it up is difficult and rewarding. But it’s not easy to trust someone wholly, and jealousy - within reason - is not necessarily a mark of insecurity. Considering how many relationships end badly, it’s not automatically unreasonable to be jealous, nor does it mean that it indicates a desire to rule someone’s life. It can just mean that one person needs reassurance that the relationship is indeed as solid as it seems. Some people need that reassurance more than others. Once again, a fine line between “reasonable” jealousy and unreasonable.
SG: It’s nice that you feel comfortable enough in your self not to care one whit about other people’s feelings. But I still feel that if you really, truly care about someone in your life - whether it’s romantically or otherwise - then one can’t simply ignore their opinions about what to do or even who to be. Man is a social creature, and society is full of complex stigmas and tacit rewards, no matter what society you’re in. A large part of who you are is inevitably based on your society, whether you’re conscious of that or not. Ignoring it completely can be unhealthy.
I’ve never meant to imply otherwise. One of the first things I said in the thread was this:
I do believe there are some situations where you do need to make compromises with your partner. If you just say “Yeah, shut up, I do what I want!” all the time, then you’re not even gonna have a functional relationship.
That being said, I think it’s important to choose your partner based on certain things. One thing that my girlfriend and I enjoy about each other is that we have many differences, but coexist. We’ve ‘changed’ for each other, but I think the way we’ve changed is different than the way most people think about it. I think that there has been maybe like, ONE time in our relationship where one of us said to the other, “This needs to change, or else it will become a big problem.” Rather, I think that being around each other inspires us to be better people, and fix the problems that we have, but lacked the motivation to change before. I disagree with the “This needs to change” policy, unless absolutely no amount of discussion will change it. Incidentally, they’re usually the most minor of all changes.
Man is a social creature, and society is full of complex stigmas and tacit rewards, no matter what society you’re in. A large part of who you are is inevitably based on your society, whether you’re conscious of that or not. Ignoring it completely can be unhealthy.
I suppose. At university, I don’t have a lot of friends; a lot of them take my brash and abrasive personality offensively, and think I’m a total dick. On the other hand, I have almost too MANY friends in my hometown, because it’s almost like a different culture and lifestyle. Where I live, people just ACT the way I do, and there’s nothing hateful about it. Consequently, I have very few friends at College, but the ones I do are the ones that I think are worth having.
Maybe that is unhealthy, as you say; but, I’ve made several changes to myself that I found necessary. It’s not as if I’ve never stopped to consider my actions. I enjoy the way I operate with people. I think, if the way I acted was truly horrible, I wouldn’t have a lot of friends in general, rather than having one, isolated city where few people understand what I’m playing at.
SINISTRAL POSTING:
Ok since I can’t really post anything using my account for obvious reasons, I have to edit other people’s posts to communicate. I’m not getting into any debate of opinions with anyone like SG because its not worth my time.
I will answer DR’s points very simple:
Firstly, you’re a moron. Wake the fuck up and smell the fucking fresh air. Get your head out of your ass and look at what is happening around you and not what you want there to happen around you. OUR opinions is not the one that matters in all this because OUR opinions will not alter what YOUR GF thinks. Therefore it is entirely futile to debate the different people here about these things. You aren’t debating these things to make your GF understand you, you’re debating things to comfort your ego and acquire some kind of moral justification you can hang above your GF’s head to absolve yourself of guilt.
“I have no alterior motives whatsoever.”
-Doesn’t matter if your GF doesn’t believe you.
“It is exactly what I said it was. It’s hanging out with a friend from work who happens to be lacking a penis.”
-Doesn’t matter if your GF doesn’t believe you.
“My girlfriend knows I love her, and wouldnt cheat on her, and this other girl knows I have g/f and wouldnt cheat on her, and she isn’t interested in me in that way either.”
-Doesn’t matter if your GF doesn’t believe you.
“(Plus she has kids, which is an immediate red flag, so I wouldnt date her anyway).”
-If a man could fuck in a box he wouldn’t buy a house - Dave Chapelle.
“Like I said, she’s just a work buddy”
-Doesn’t matter if your GF doesn’t believe you.
AND NO SHE WON’T CHANGE. People DO NOT change. Only their circumstances. If someone looks like they’re changing, they’re not changing; odds are, they’re simply reacting to a new situation you hadn’t seen them in before and it looks like they’re changing because your perception of them was flawed and you wouldn’t have thought they would act that way.
I totally disagree with the idea that people never change. I’m a very different person from who I was ten years ago; almost a polar opposite, in fact. People certainly do change; their attitudes, ways of thinking, even personalities can be completely overhauled based on events in their lives or even active work towards particular changes.
-----Sinistral------
Only extreme events will make someone fundamentally change. And even then its no guarantee. People can change superficially, just like I change my clothes or my look like I want to, but that doesn’t change the core.
Disregarding all the other meaningless squabbling before me on this deeply immature issue (I believe someone before me mentioned middleschooler? )
I’m going to say that yet, the GF DOES have a right to be jealous . . . about hanging out with her at the bars. Why would that friend get you to hang out with her at the bars . . . whats wrong with some other place, a cafe, ANYTHING, something that doesn’t involve the possibility of getting drunk. I, as a girl, can NOT think that she wants you as a friend only, as shes taking you to bars. She WANTS you. Yeah.
HOWEVER, I ALWAYS believe that it is right to have friends of both sexes, males having female friends, or females having male friends (though I would have to speak out against my own gender and say that females having male friends are worse.) If she plain out doesn’t let you talk to some girl in your workplace who thats all there is to it, and the girl doesn’t try to present any . . . interesting, situations to you, then your GF is wrong.
Ok enough ranting from me, this is SUCH a foolish subject, UGH.
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